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SSANZ 50 Protests.......


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This thread has become combative and isn't advancing the subject at all.

 

Last night Fish posted a link to some content on the SSANZ site.

 

A couple of hours later on, Cam wrote that "the truth will be revealed in good time."

 

I took that to mean there was more, or something more significant, to come at a future date.

 

However Pork Chop's post this morning indicates that what is currently there on the site, is all that was intended to be there.

 

I didn't go out to bag anyone and if Cam feels bagged or that his contribution or SSANZ are unappreciated, I apologise, without any hesitation.

 

Equally, if it is taking some time to get the necessary people together or people are snowed under with work - both suggestions which have been advanced by various posts this morning - I understand that.

 

I hereby promise to not look at or take any further part in this thread but will do so none the wiser as to what has taken place and whether the matter is done and dusted and covered by what is on the SSANZ site, or is still in progress. :?

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That is indeed well done. Big Ups to SSANZ for putting it up, it's obviously an area of confusion. Interesting read actually and makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

 

And point taken about protesting. We would have but do like to give the benefit of doubt. But we, and most of the sporty fleet, will be watching our particularly wayward boat with keen interest... and cameras. I understand the crew have been 'spoken too' so are now very well aware they did bad, were seen doing bad and now have put a big target on themselves. Hopefully it won't happen again.

 

And nice to see the protesting parties worked it out in a gentlemen like manner.

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Guest Dry Reach

 

also holding protests meeting after the race helps!

 

DR, is this have protests after a race as distinct from before the race?

 

Great idea, why didn't I think of that, I feel all educated now.

 

Might want to think on what the race is and the logistics of what you suggest first.

 

Might also want to try your hand at organising protest hearings that five different parties can all attend before you get too critical on how long it takes, you know some more of that real world rubbish that can be so inconvenient to your own prejudices.

 

And to clarify, are you advocating that race organisers should be publicly commenting on matters which may be the subject of a protest before that protest is heard?

 

Mark M. you can have them before if you like but ...if the organizing club made it a rule to hold the protest say? within two hours of the last finisher then they would have to turn up (if they want to protest or defend a protest)

 

in nearly every race / regatta i have sailed or protested in, weather at local, national or international level, they almost always run the protest the same day as this is when the people involved have there "freshest thoughts", are all available. and is the easiest time (They are all ther ot there abouts!.)

 

If its a requirement of the racing rules to have same day protest hearings the ofenders and defender will either turn up or Miss out!. Just like any other regattas / rukles used in NZ

 

Also doing it straight away stops the Above issues and comms problems.

 

Lets face it when you protest someone you have to notify them and thus they know they are being protested! if you withdarw it they will be notified if not they know to front up of lose!

 

Also regardless of weather you are a volunteer or a pro these people should do the best job possible and have systems and process's to ensure that the quickest and best outcome is possible.

 

i'm not bagging anyone here. but just offering a different perspective to the current process / issue.

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DR, don't quite think you're appreciating the nature of the event or the practicalities I referred to.

 

The race, elapsed time somewhere between 5 and 26hrs and finishers very widespread.

 

Attendies, anywhere from Gulf Harbour through to Pine Harbour, many aren't within two hours motoring of the start, there are also some out-of-towners.

 

There is no central clubhouse, beach or whatever so no place 'everyone goes' after.

 

Protest notification, yeah, but remember a boat protesting you may have finished three hours after you and gone to a marina 50 miles away.

 

Given all this, almost none of your assumptions are valid.

 

If you're going to publicly tell people how to suck eggs, that's okay but you should first make sure all your assumptions are correct.

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Ok... it seems a few people couldn't wait... So now you have vented :D :D :D

 

Anyway, up until yesterday there was nothing to tell. SSANZ is a small organisation so the idea of running protests the same or next day will never work. Typically they would happen just over a week after the race.

 

In this case there wasn't much to dispute in regards to facts, but some research was needed into the rules in regards to Code Zero's. Abit of communication between parties and things were looking on track to resolve themselves without a need to visit the room. I'd like to thank Hornblower for being sporting in withdrawing after checking the rules. I believe it was a genuine error on their part with no intention to "cheat"

 

All parties involved agreed there was a need for education in regards to code zero's hence the article on the SSANZ site. Hopefully feedback to YNZ will result in some amendments to application forms next year to further clarify any issues.

 

I've also sent an email to all skippers as I'm hearing there are boats out racing with undeclared sails or Code Zero's that should be measured as headsails. They now have time to sort it out before race 2 otherwise risk being protested (I'd personally encourage boats to make protests in this regard).

 

Any other questions ?

 

Cameron

 

p.s Check the time of my post last night. I basically got home saw the post regarding Oracle winning her protest and thought I better stop that in it's tracks as a protest hearing hadn't even happened ! I didn't have the time or inclination to write anymore just then and I do have a job to do in the daytime as well !

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Also regardless of weather you are a volunteer or a pro these people should do the best job possible and have systems and process's to ensure that the quickest and best outcome is possible.

 

Dry Reach... I like your thoughts. In fact so much I'd like you to consider a role as SSANZ media officer. I'd expect a fantastic first rate job done with your attitude. Currently (as noone else wants to know about it) it's one of my jobs and to be honest I could do much better. I still haven't even written a report for crew.org yet ! (Jeez I'll prob get hung now :clap: ) Sorry Squid it's on the list and slowly working up the priority order.

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Guest Dry Reach
DR, don't quite think you're appreciating the nature of the event or the practicalities I referred to.

 

The race, elapsed time somewhere between 5 and 26hrs and finishers very widespread.

 

Attendies, anywhere from Gulf Harbour through to Pine Harbour, many aren't within two hours motoring of the start, there are also some out-of-towners.

 

There is no central clubhouse, beach or whatever so no place 'everyone goes' after.

 

Protest notification, yeah, but remember a boat protesting you may have finished three hours after you and gone to a marina 50 miles away.

 

Given all this, almost none of your assumptions are valid.

 

If you're going to publicly tell people how to suck eggs, that's okay but you should first make sure all your assumptions are correct.

 

 

Hear and understand what you are saying. But your post indicates that there is a lot of things they could work on to make the protest resolution process easier and more transparant.

 

also my assumptions are a reflection of the info available. so appologise if some detail is wrong.

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Guest Dry Reach
Also regardless of weather you are a volunteer or a pro these people should do the best job possible and have systems and process's to ensure that the quickest and best outcome is possible.

 

Dry Reach... I like your thoughts. In fact so much I'd like you to consider a role as SSANZ media officer. I'd expect a fantastic first rate job done with your attitude. Currently (as noone else wants to know about it) it's one of my jobs and to be honest I could do much better. I still haven't even written a report for crew.org yet ! (Jeez I'll prob get hung now :clap: ) Sorry Squid it's on the list and slowly working up the priority order.

 

 

Cameron, i am not saying anybody is doing wrong but offering thoughts on how to make things better and maybe easier for the race / protest commitee, the media man and all concerned?

 

after all the volenteers would like to reduce their time involved in protests! and the best way to do that is to make if challenging for skippers to process a protest (and easier for the volunteers) which would in turn make them think a bit smarter on the race course... which in turn should make the commitee have less "issues"

 

Not trying to make anybodyy suck unborn chickens here!

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Elly the DDF vs Recreation protest was withdrawn.

 

Dry Reach, I guess we have differing philosophies (spelling ???)

 

As much as I would prefer to be doing other things over attending/organising protests I believe yachting actually needs more competitors to lodge protests if they feel something isn't right. As such I would hate to see things made more "challenging" for the skippers in regards to protests.

 

I don't think it's fair to have a protest committee on standby just in case of a protest. As we don't have a prizegiving immediately after each race (as well as issues Markm mentioned in regards to boats locations etc). We do have the luxury of time.

 

I think alot of kiwi's have a poor attitude in that protesting can be frowned apon. If we took the attitude "lets learn from this so we can get it right in the future" not only would competitors attitudes towards each other improve but compliance with the rules would also improve.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see a few more protests after the next race in regards to PHRF measurements. Personally I would no longer have any sympathy for anyone in breach as they have just had a pretty good warning. I just hope competitors protest instead of moan on forums or at the bar afterwards. Even better would be if everyone plays by the rules and we get no protests !

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Guest Dry Reach
Elly the DDF vs Recreation protest was withdrawn.

 

Dry Reach, I guess we have differing philosophies (spelling ???)

 

As much as I would prefer to be doing other things over attending/organising protests I believe yachting actually needs more competitors to lodge protests if they feel something isn't right. As such I would hate to see things made more "challenging" for the skippers in regards to protests.

 

I don't think it's fair to have a protest committee on standby just in case of a protest. As we don't have a prizegiving immediately after each race (as well as issues Markm mentioned in regards to boats locations etc). We do have the luxury of time.

 

I think alot of kiwi's have a poor attitude in that protesting can be frowned apon. If we took the attitude "lets learn from this so we can get it right in the future" not only would competitors attitudes towards each other improve but compliance with the rules would also improve.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see a few more protests after the next race in regards to PHRF measurements. Personally I would no longer have any sympathy for anyone in breach as they have just had a pretty good warning. I just hope competitors protest instead of moan on forums or at the bar afterwards. Even better would be if everyone plays by the rules and we get no protests !

 

 

true. i guess i come from a dingy / regatta background where eveything is resolved before the next day/ race. (all by volunteers) and the process's / systems are more simple for obvious reasons.

 

I have no problem with protests and infact have put in a few doozies myself (even against good friends) but i believe the sailors wishes should not inconvienence the Volunteers work / time constraints.

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Cameron and all SSANZ volunteers. I think you do a terrific job and put so much of your spare time into running races for alot of people - most of whom are grateful and understanding - some of whom are simply impatient due to their enthusiasm - a few who are simply impatient - and of course a few who are just rude and ungrateful.

 

Having run far smaller events at club level, I get sick of what seems to be a never ending criticism (masked as a joke but the dig is there if you know what I mean) by a whole heap of punters who should know better. The vast majority of them never ever help out and simply expect it to be done for them.

 

If we end up with a protest after a race it will never take place earlier than 3 days after a race as that is the constraints of what we have to deal with. You have to contact people, perhaps wait for them to get back to you, that includes rounding up the protest committee, and organise an evening that suits perhaps 10 or more people, including witnesses etc. At the end of the whole process there is going to one skipper and crew who leaves feeling that they've been dealt an unfair decision. So running a protest is never going to be a fun event with everyone feeling the love afterwards. Nonetheless I enjoy being on a protest committee as it's an interesting and learning experience.

 

So even though I haven't done a Simrad series for a few years now, thanks for all your efforts SSANZ people! :D

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Guest Dry Reach
Cameron and all SSANZ volunteers. I think you do a terrific job and put so much of your spare time into running races for alot of people - most of whom are grateful and understanding - some of whom are simply impatient due to their enthusiasm - a few who are simply impatient - and of course a few who are just rude and ungrateful.

 

Having run far smaller events at club level, I get sick of what seems to be a never ending criticism (masked as a joke but the dig is there if you know what I mean) by a whole heap of punters who should know better. The vast majority of them never ever help out and simply expect it to be done for them.

 

 

So even though I haven't done a Simrad series for a few years now, thanks for all your efforts SSANZ people! :D

 

 

Maybe some of the entry money should go to the vollies?

 

or maybe YNZ could help out? they have heaps of money and plenty of people at H/O.

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I just hope competitors protest instead of moan on forums or at the bar afterwards. Even better would be if everyone plays by the rules and we get no protests !

 

 

Hell no, I have to think of my ratings.

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