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NEW AMEWRICAS CUP RULES FAVOUR THE DEAFENDER


sailinghigh

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NEW AMEWRICAS CUP RULES FAVOUR THE DEAFENDER

 

 

"The America's Cup stir the rules for the 2017 regatta. "Ye Ha"

 

They're radical, ambitious and sure to set off debates in yacht club bars from Sydney to San Diego, and San Francisco to Southampton.

 

Defending champion Oracle Team USA will race against challengers in early elimination rounds. It can build two 62-foot, wing-sailed foiling catamarans, insurance against a catastrophic failure, while challengers will be limited to one, a clause that's sure to be controversial.

 

In another twist, either Oracle Team USA or a challenger could start the best-of-13 America's Cup match with a one-point lead, depending on results from the qualifying rounds.

 

The rules were published even though organisers haven't decided whether San Francisco, San Diego, Bermuda or Chicago will be the main venue.

 

Unlike in previous America's Cup regattas, the defender will be allowed to sail against challengers in the elimination series. An America's Cup World Series in 45-foot catamarans in 2015 and 2016 will be used to seed the America's Cup Qualifiers, a double-round robin event. The winner of the qualifiers - whether it's Oracle or a challenger - will get a bonus point in the America's Cup match.

 

Oracle will be allowed to build two 62-foot cats. It can conduct two-boat training during the America's Cup Playoffs for the challengers, but then must sail its first boat in the match. If there's a catastrophic failure, it can use its second boat in the match. If the winner of the challenger series has a serious breakdown and can't sail in the match, the runner-up will advance."

 

This will cause difficulties and difficulties finding funding and sponsors.

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The next event had to go faster/ bigger/ and forget the price tag.

 

To evolve to foiling then go down in size is a backwards move for the event and sailings development.

 

The last event was awesome and a great spectacle. The Same size boat evolved for 4 years would see a better spectacle and the price would not be out of control.

 

Dissapointed to say the least.

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I don't really agree X.

Now that the boats "fly", size has little to do with performance, although it does add to the spectacle.

The issue for me is that it's already very one-sided. The holders can have 2 boats - everyone else one. AND they can sail in the challenger series! This means that they can build their boats a bit closer to the engineering edge than the others - if they break it they have another. So, lighter and therefore foiling earlier and hence faster. Everyone else will have to over-engineer their boats, as if they break them, they are effectively out.

Being able to sail in the challenger series means they have the opportunity to gauge the challenger boats, and modify the one that they are not using with the best ideas. It will take out a lot of the guesswork in "who is faster" before the AC itself...

For the first time ever, I am not convinced that ETNZ should do this. I'm not saying they should not, I'm just unsure at this point. The rule bias is only likely to get worse!! It's very disappointing :thumbdown: And, IMO, not sportsmanlike. But then, which AC was???

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I don't really agree X.

Now that the boats "fly", size has little to do with performance, although it does add to the spectacle.

The issue for me is that it's already very one-sided. The holders can have 2 boats - everyone else one. AND they can sail in the challenger series! This means that they can build their boats a bit closer to the engineering edge than the others - if they break it they have another. So, lighter and therefore foiling earlier and hence faster. Everyone else will have to over-engineer their boats, as if they break them, they are effectively out.

Being able to sail in the challenger series means they have the opportunity to gauge the challenger boats, and modify the one that they are not using with the best ideas. It will take out a lot of the guesswork in "who is faster" before the AC itself...

For the first time ever, I am not convinced that ETNZ should do this. I'm not saying they should not, I'm just unsure at this point. The rule bias is only likely to get worse!! It's very disappointing :thumbdown: And, IMO, not sportsmanlike. But then, which AC was???

 

Good points and I guess from a non sailor perspective it will look just as good.

 

I just want to see how far they can go with the tecnology and not loose the wow factor.

 

AC has always bee one sided. This has made it harder but one fast innovation could make the difference.

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Alternatively there is only ONE United States of America = 2 boats.

 

In NZ, surely under our existing policy structures we can use our "development aid" plans to enter boats for Samoa, Tonga, Nieu, Raratonga etc nations. After all, did I not spot John Keys and that "new" development ambassador visiting these places on TV.

 

Who said Kava at 0900 did not create good ideas :?:

 

Team uniforms in typical floral patterns would look better than plain black though I could accept black flora patterns, if acceptable to our more tropical cousins.

:think: :think: :think:

 

This way our 5 boat development team could really explore the high wind strength possibilities of traditional island sails.

 

The cost savings alone would be huge and BooBoo needs a few months in the sun :thumbup:

 

Is hollowed out coconut trees and composites made of coconut husks a lot cheaper than carbon and kevlar :?:

 

It may be stronger. Who knows :?:

 

Who has actually tested this :?:

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The next event had to go faster/ bigger/ and forget the price tag.

 

To evolve to foiling then go down in size is a backwards move for the event and sailings development.

 

The last event was awesome and a great spectacle. The Same size boat evolved for 4 years would see a better spectacle and the price would not be out of control.

 

Dissapointed to say the least.

 

Disagree with that point on view although you seem to have two points on view.

 

With respect several things they could have done to retain the same size.

 

1. Soft sails conventional wing mast.

 

This would eliminate, as Dalton complained, having to have a aircraft hanger like shed, crane and the 60 extra employees, thus reducing wages and accommodation. Massive saving. and use the previous boats for training and assessment purposes.

 

The experts agree about the same speed would be achieved as the previous world speed record holder had soft sails.

 

2. Electric winches would eliminate the grinders personnel, crew, wages and accommodation and the boats would be lighter, hence more speed - foiling earlier.

.

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I don't really agree X.

Now that the boats "fly", size has little to do with performance, although it does add to the spectacle.

The issue for me is that it's already very one-sided. The holders can have 2 boats - everyone else one. AND they can sail in the challenger series! This means that they can build their boats a bit closer to the engineering edge than the others - if they break it they have another. So, lighter and therefore foiling earlier and hence faster. Everyone else will have to over-engineer their boats, as if they break them, they are effectively out.

Being able to sail in the challenger series means they have the opportunity to gauge the challenger boats, and modify the one that they are not using with the best ideas. It will take out a lot of the guesswork in "who is faster" before the AC itself...

For the first time ever, I am not convinced that ETNZ should do this. I'm not saying they should not, I'm just unsure at this point. The rule bias is only likely to get worse!! It's very disappointing :thumbdown: And, IMO, not sportsmanlike. But then, which AC was???

 

Can you possibly look at the issue this way.

 

Australia agreed to the rules on behalf on the challengers to gain expert advice and training from oracle.

 

The challengers will have two boats as well for the Americas cup. Where do the rules say the non cup races are restricted to a single boat. Please correct me if I'm wrong I will not be offended but educated. The cup races if the challenger break their boat that's good bye nurse, oracle wins with the old rules with the public and the sponsors short changed. But with the new rules they get to call on the second challenger to race with the points earned from the broken team and if they carry on to win oracle losses.

 

Plus if the challenger is losing, like all Americas cups fiddles, they simply break their boat and say to the other team go for them and kick ass.

 

That's fair Americas cup rules.

 

Remember TNZ, they where dramatically winning but the [defender] still won the cup. How does that happen. Ask why?

 

Over confident smug NZ press, the NZ public, posters and poor defiant decisions by Dalton.

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latest public opinion poll.

 

 

 

 

Question ; ;

Should Team NZ enter the next America's Cup?

 

2350–2400 votes

 

 

 

Yes. 12%

 

 

12%

 

 

No. 88%

 

 

88%

 

Team New Zealand should not enter the next America's Cup.

 

Considering the Kiwi long association with the event with loosing so many times , and how agonisingly close NZ got to snatching the Auld Mug but with Daltons defiant losing streak. Team New Zealand should not enter the next America's Cup and loose again.

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My memory could be incorrect but didn't Alinghi try to have similar rules ie. allowed to sail in challenger series? Isnt that why Oracle took them to court ( not the only reason Im sure) and the whole thing got shelved for 5 years ? They might aswell write the rules saying that the Defender WILL win but you can come along and play anyway. Sailing in the challenger series is straight up cheating I reckon, the possibility that the defender could throw matches and effectively have some control over who they would be racing against in the Cup is rubbish.

 

Going to be another tough 1 for TNZ hopefully they can get the money together and have another crack at it, just would not be the same with out TNZ there, cant see how there would be a real challenge from any one else.

 

By the way I hope they let Blair Tuke and Peter Burling give Dean Barker and co a run for their money, I think its time Dean Barker earned his spot at the wheel and proved him self worthy against these guys, they already have a excellent record at the olympics etc and Dean Barker well ...... not so much

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My memory could be incorrect but didn't Alinghi try to have similar rules ie. allowed to sail in challenger series? Isnt that why Oracle took them to court ( not the only reason Im sure) and the whole thing got shelved for 5 years ? They might aswell write the rules saying that the Defender WILL win but you can come along and play anyway. Sailing in the challenger series is straight up cheating I reckon, the possibility that the defender could throw matches and effectively have some control over who they would be racing against in the Cup is rubbish.

 

Going to be another tough 1 for TNZ hopefully they can get the money together and have another crack at it, just would not be the same with out TNZ there, cant see how there would be a real challenge from any one else.

 

By the way I hope they let Blair Tuke and Peter Burling give Dean Barker and co a run for their money, I think its time Dean Barker earned his spot at the wheel and proved him self worthy against these guys, they already have a excellent record at the olympics etc and Dean Barker well ...... not so much

 

acklsailor and Island time.

 

quote first.

 

"AND they can sail in the challenger series! This means that they can build their boats a bit closer to the engineering edge than the others - if they break it they have another. So, lighter and therefore foiling earlier and hence faster. Everyone else will have to over-engineer their boats, as if they break them, they are effectively out."

 

No disrespect, it, didn't they do that at the previous cup and they broke their boat. and didn't ETNZ over engineer their boat and boards so they could sail on all weather conditions. ETNZ was the only boat to say it was safe and they where prepared to sail on the water at 30 knts plus. If my memory serves me well was it not the race with light airs that ETNZ where so far ahead with oracle unable to sail or foil because excess drag by their foils and the race was abandon due to a time limit. It was reported barker yelled a loud absence word F.... when they go the red light. That race from memory was also the race that would have won them the cup.

Could that be said an over engineered vessel beating a under engineered vessel.

 

Auckl sailor and who else.

 

A big call sailing with the challengers is cheating. Didn't both ORACLE AND ETNZ virtually sail on the same water, same time almost side by side and got get a measure about each others numbers. Another call [excuse ] was for ETNZ was to sail over and by just to say greetings you guys during a practice race.

 

With respect having the defender sail with the challengers I see as an advantage. Previous cup no body actually knew until the first cup race how fast oracle was and no time to make real adjustments. ETNZ was so smug over confident they did nothing and thought like most NZ'S that they could not be beaten, HAD THE CUP WON and even had the audacity to start picking a venue site some where around Auckland with races still to race.

Having them sail on and with the defenders gives the challengers a legal argument free chance to get a handle on all the boats especially the defender. If they find early [which they did not have previously] that they are way behind the eight ball, which gives them an opportunity to call on the designers to meet and possibly make major modifications to their boats to equal or surpass the defender, an advantage to the challengers.

 

Can't see a challenge from elsewhere.

 

How many times did TNZ loose against ALINGHI?

Who took the cup from TNZ?

 

Re Olympics sailors records.

 

Didn't ORACLE have a 5 times gold medallist on their team helming the second boat and he could not match it with the non Olympic helmsman. In fact most on his crew they stated they where so scared, frightened with his helming they almost sh-t themselves every time they raced.

 

He is trying to put a challenge together and he proved to be a excellent tactician, far superior to ETNZ tactician.

He will need good designers and a helmsman and possibly a chance should they race, to win the cup.

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SH, you make some good points there. I hadn't thought about it from that view point.

 

I think there is a huge amount of bullshit to pass under the bridge before racing starts and that has always been the way of the Americas cup. Don't forget the original British rules stated the boat had to get there under its own steam (so to speak) and America did just that. Sailed across the Atlantic, opened up a can of woop ass and sailed home with the auld mug. It's been a rich mans folly ever since. So to complain that it is unfair is like saying weet bix should have flavour. It wouldn't be weet bix if it did!

 

Still not sure how interested I will be until the boats start sailing...

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Sailinhigh, True the teams do train in the same waters and gauge against each other I'm sure, but being the defender and sailing in the challenger series where points are involved is totally different. They could very easily have a convenient gear failure and give points away to a chosen team at a crucial time in the regatta. I think ( just my opinion ) that leaving this as a possibility is very un fair and unacceptable in today's sporting arena. I reckon part of the cup is not having a clue who is going to have an edge over who until the first top mark even then nothing is guaranted as we learnt last year!

 

And as for the young fellas vs Dean Barker all I was saying was at least put them against each other to sort out who deserves to be at the helm! 2 TNZ AC45's in the World Series? I'm just not convinced putting Dean at helm just cause he's there is not the best thing!! ( just my opinion)

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Sailinhigh, True the teams do train in the same waters and gauge against each other I'm sure, but being the defender and sailing in the challenger series where points are involved is totally different. They could very easily have a convenient gear failure and give points away to a chosen team at a crucial time in the regatta. I think ( just my opinion ) that leaving this as a possibility is very un fair and unacceptable in today's sporting arena. I reckon part of the cup is not having a clue who is going to have an edge over who until the first top mark even then nothing is guaranted as we learnt last year!

 

And as for the young fellas vs Dean Barker all I was saying was at least put them against each other to sort out who deserves to be at the helm! 2 TNZ AC45's in the World Series? I'm just not convinced putting Dean at helm just cause he's there is not the best thing!! ( just my opinion)

 

Re Points.

 

The winner only gets a point during the elimination series for the cup races and oracle will be looking for that point.

 

Each cup is different as they set new designs, courses, and rules.

 

The Ausies representing all challengers, because they presented their notice first has agreed to the new rules.

 

What's fair at the moment re today's sporting arena?

No body blinks an eyelid when the all blacks are going to loose 7 points 6 meters from the try line by committing a professional foul, thus giving the other team a penalty, 3 points only, saving themselves 4 points and they [AB's] get to start again 50 meters from the try line. They get the kick forward on to the oppositions territory and attacking instead on being on defence 6 meters from the try line. If fact most NZ's cheer, wave flags and lift their beer cans convinced the team are playing a honest game.

 

Not having a clue. Can't quite get my head around that statement.

 

With respect correct me if I'm wrong didn't ETNZ, the public and yachting sports writers worldwide rate NZ as the fastest boat, with the longest time on the water, the best foiling system because they hired the guy that wrote the foiling rules to get inside knowledge - interpretation etc. for their foils system, rated by all as having the best crew, including just about every poster on this site, ETNZ would win the cup by a long shot. Does that make for having a clue. Confirmed by the first three races ETNZ won convincingly plus the race they where 1000 meters forward from ORACLE and where 4 minutes from winning the cup.

 

Re dean barker and the young guys. Thought I had covered that point.

 

Who has stated Dean Barker will be the helms man. TNZ have to advance from the drawing board stage.

 

Have they paid their entry fee as yet. I DON'T THINK SO, BUT CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, I will not be offended but educated.

 

The 45's is unchartered territory to my mind because they are going to be foiling cats, which they have not been so far.

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All Black supporters celebrating giving 3 points away that doesn't sound right!!! You must be an Australian. :D is that you jimmy ? :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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