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#11 Knot Me... maybe

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 01:34 PM

Not so much to avoid Cat 1 than to avoid the w%^#$y that it's all part of I think IT.

 

I have no issues with any of the Inspectors I've ever dealt with. Most I have found to be quite pragmatic, as they should be, and great source of info and ideas. 

 

The Safey Regs do not and can not allow for every boat in every situation. There is stuff in them that can make boats less safer than they need to be just as there is stuff not in them that should be. 


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#12 Kevin McCready

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 01:47 PM

Black Panther

Could you possibly post the list your pharmacist friend suggested for you versus the Cat 1 list? I'm keen to learn.


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#13 ex TL systems

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 02:22 PM

My main issue with cat 1 for a multihull that has already crossed oceans is having to cut  big holes near the waterline for escape hatches, they end up being sealed up to stop them leaking at sea , and may not be able to be opened if needed anyway , and if opened will likely make the boat settle lower in the water once inverted.   If you end up in a Rose Noelle inverted situation you want your hole higher which means below the waterline and that means having the tools and a

'cut here" marking.  Plenty of safe boats and crews come from countries that don,t have cat 1.


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#14 island time

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 03:25 PM

XTL, have you spoken to a local inspector about this? TC might be a start...

 

BP you are not obliged to buy the "suggested" first aid kit. You can have any equivalent, the medication list is in the rules, and pretty much any of the medication can be substituted by any other, with the approval of a doctor or pharmacist. I totally agree that the "standard" first aid kit is well over priced. Often the medications in them also are pretty much near their use by dates - which is I think a rip off. 

 

I suggest you talk to another inspector, one who understands ply boats. You are free to ask about their experience.


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There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worth doing, as simply messing about in boats


#15 grantmc

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 04:06 PM

I suggest you talk to another inspector, one who understands ply boats. You are free to ask about their experience.

The variability and inconsistency between inspectors makes the system somewhat of a farce. Imagine if we just ran round as suggested with our cars until we found a garage that would provide it with a WOF. But this seems to be the practice with yachts. It's caused of course because so much of the regulation is open to interpretation because it lacks definition. Also as pointed out earlier the rules are now so far out of date.

 

It's not even clear what category an event should be given the rules use vague and non specific words like; very extended, heavy storms, serious emergencies, self-sufficient, extended duration, relatively warm, close to shorelines etc etc.    

 

I crewed on a boat that did the Auckland to Suva race last year and of course had had a cat 1 certificate issued immediately before the race. Yet there were numerous infractions from the rules. I wont list them all here, but some basic examples. Only had a single anchor that was stored deep at the end of a quarter berth (rules 10.0), no radar reflector (9.11), only 2 x 1kg extinguishers (9.1), no toe rail (7.24 ©). 

 

And to be fair to the inspectors, the rules are all about racing. Having to get a cat 1 for some frumpy old tub to get to Fiji or Tonga is far far different than the same trip in a race.


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Grant Mc

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#16 ex TL systems

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 04:50 PM

Island time,No to be fair, I haven,t spoken to an inspector, just read the rules and assumed that they would be applied, and it seemed pretty hard to comply and no guarantee that a certificate would be granted.  Grant mc yes I agree with your point about racing, you put a boat under so much more stress when you push hard, a boat racing is unlikely to sit out a blow on a sea anchor, or slow down to ease motion and a light multihull racing is much more likely to capsize than a heavy cruising boat or a Wharram with a conservative rig.  I,m not trying to change/abolish cat 1 , just not sure that I want the hassle and expense of the whole thing.

IT assuming you left NZ with a cat 1 all inspected and went around the world with many stops, would you feel that much less safe leaving whatever foreign port without an inspection before you left, that is doing the same preparation but without someone telling you what you have to do? 

Hey Cat one I am sure has saved many lives , it just seems to be a bit over the top in some ways but I guess I am only going on what I read in the rules, and probably being a bit lazy too.


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#17 grant

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 04:59 PM

The variability and inconsistency between inspectors makes the system somewhat of a farce. Imagine if we just ran round as suggested with our cars until we found a garage that would provide it with a WOF. 

 

isn't that what used to happen?  If you didn't get a WOF at one garage you could try another and might pass?


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#18 grantmc

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 05:23 PM

isn't that what used to happen?  If you didn't get a WOF at one garage you could try another and might pass?

That's my point. And ok it still isn't perfect. But those poor practices were pretty much stopped in the motor industry by clear rules, inspector education and as a result we have consistent inspections. But yacht inspections seem stuck in the 1980s. 


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Grant Mc

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#19 island time

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 05:56 PM

That's all true guys, but also remember that the Inspectors are not doing this for a living. They are paid, but it is  not a lot, and is more a re-reimbursement than a wage. Not sure if you could call it volunteer work, but it is close.

 

Yachts vary a lot as KM pointed out before, and regulations to cover every point would be a nightmare, and a costly one at that.

 

BP, I have also had one inspector that I would not go back to. The others I have had dealings with have all been very reasonable.

The inspections I've had did not go thru every item in the book. They talk to you, look at the boat and its condition and preparation, and I think a lot has to do with the impression they get. If the boat or crew has issues, they will be more stringent. If they have got to the point where every line in the regs is enforced regardless, then we have a real issue, but I do not think we are there at this point?

 

I found the cat one regs a good guide and aide-memoir to help make sure I had not overlooked anything.... hence my comment about WOF.

 

Really, IMO, the regulations themselves were to help the authorities show they were doing something to reduce the risk and frequency of the very expensive rescues NZ has to do every year.   


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There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worth doing, as simply messing about in boats


#20 Steve Pope

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 08:33 PM

I think you wil find the cat 1"rules" are recommendations and can be discussed / negotiated. One case in mind the Cat 1 inspector asked to see the medical kit, when shown a smallish container with some medical stuff in it (a fraction of what is in the list) he was going to reject it, whereupon the woman showing the kit to him said "I am a doctor, and this is what I consider will be adequate for our needs. End of story, she went with her kit.


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