Boat painting costs

[wheels 543]

The normal problem with Epoxies and the additional coats not adhering is due to the under lying Epoxy being allowed to get too hard before the additional coat is applied. A batch failure does not cause the above coatings to not adhere. The batch usually fails to adhere to what is beneath it.

Mr Wolf, I can not buy the fact that keying still did not allow the additional coats to stick. That is the entire point of keying. You create a "key" that allows the new coating to "lock" to the surface when normally it would not.

Most everytime a failure of coatings occurs, it has been due to poorly following of procedures. And I tell ya, one of the two really biggies I have often seen, no make that three, is poor mixing of two pots, not allowing enough Standing time before spraying and painting when the humidity is too high. One yard in Havelock paints even when it rains. He's completely nuts. No make that four issues. One biggy is failure to correctly mix the right ratios. This is critical, I can not stress it enough, that two pot paints and Epoxy Resins MUST have the right ratio of Hardner to Base. The Hardener IS NOT a catylist, it is a component that chemically links the molecules together. Too much or too little will cause issues to the hardness and durability of the paint.

Batch failure is very very very rare if not even impossible. Especially in the way paints are manufactured today. Even 20yrs ago, the way paints are made in the factories has not really changed much. Only the chemicals and formulations of the newer paints have changed. And one big change is that the coatings have become far more forgiving of when and how they are applied. They are more tolerant and that is why some of the poor practices have been able to have been got away with.

Oh yeah, let me add a 6th. Using a thinner that is not specific to that coating.

[Guest]

My boat had that issue when I brought her so no come back for me sadly.

 

As a FYI - I did try a fix suggestion of DR's (or a previous variation of DR ) which didn't include taking all that dodgy paint off. To date it has worked perfectly. Only a small area as a test. Given the choice I would like that dodgy coat 100% gone but I think I would follow what DR told me if I didn't want to strip her right back based on results to date. There are a fair amount of variables involved in painting so it is quite possible both Wolf and DR are correct, just for differing reasons.

 

But if a product is that twitchy even some Pros are having issues the 'crap' call probably is quite valid.

[Guest]

Of all the different products out there, why has there been such a broad failure with this system, and why now do they have an intermediate primer. DR has a big voice blaming apllication. all I can say is that if the product has to be use in a Nasa invironment, then it has no place in marine and home handy man aplications. I could go on and on about numerous stories from all aspects of the industry. but it wouldn't be positive so I won't.

 

Painting cost - most yards will quote you around $600.00 per mtr for painting.

Touch ups at around $750.00 per mtr, with a minimum of that typically.

 

The things that blow the cost are weather, hardstand, tenting, rig in or out, trucking ...........

 

For example if KM's 930 was delivered in a cradle preferably off it's keel he could probibaly pull it back out of the shed for a little over half of what he is mentioning. but what would it cost him to strip it and get it there and back.

[rigger 47]

Mr Wolf, I can not buy the fact that keying still did not allow the additional coats to stick. That is the entire point of keying. You create a "key" that allows the new coating to "lock" to the surface when normally it would not.

Sorry Wheels but I have come across a situation where everything was done correctly and the new coating came away.

 

Several years ago I observed the prep and repainting of a boat and within a few weeks the paint was coming off in sheets;

- the problem was not with the prep or the application - that was done by professionals with a paint company rep overseeing everything

- The problem was thought to be with the original two pot paint - nothing would stick to it for long,

- Only complete removal of the original paint allowed the new coating to say put, to solve the problem the paint was removed by grit blasting back to bare steel,

- the original paint and new paint was from the same company,

- I believe the owners and the paint company came to an aggrement with fixing the problem,

- The original paint had been there for a long time - perhaps the aged paint was the issue but it had been 'keyed' as per specification

[Guest]

For example if KM's 930 was delivered in a cradle preferably off it's keel he could probibaly pull it back out of the shed for a little over half of what he is mentioning. but what would it cost him to strip it and get it there and back.

None of the buggers mentioned that bit. Besides I wanted the keel done as well.

But a very interesting thing to know.

[wheels 543]

Interesting on the costs. One yard in Havelock is charging $350 a sqM and the Slipway (where I had mine painted) is $150. And I thought the 350 was expensive.

[Guest]

Some people can be argumentative . . . Back to the thread.....

As Fish said, we had our 37fter 'roller & brush' painted outside, with the mast up, in December 2008. Toe rail to water line.

Used the International Perfection system exactly as per their instructions - and following the tips & advice of our 'supervisor'.

The top coats - 2 of them - were done by said supervisor - Shaun Rowe, of Rowe Boat Painters Ltd. The total cost of his (& his offsider's) time was just under $900. I provided everything else - paint, thinners, scaffold, weather forecasts (!).

As Fish said, we did all the sanding (with a 150mm diameter Metabo orbital sander & hand sanded between top coats,) and masking up, etc. We must have taken off 24 years worth of paint - plenty of different colours. Pretty much down to the fibreglass skin.

Call Shaun on 021 555 506 - he lives at Waiwera, and at the time cellphone coverage was punk, but he always responded to my messages. Very obliging, knows what he is doing, and was happy to let us do the grunt work.

The paint, thinners, sanding discs, some epoxy fillers, brushes & rollers etc came to about $900 also (we got a good deal, I am sure). We borrowed the scaffolding frames & planks, and the hard stand & haulout costs were covered by the other work being done at the time.

I could probaly figure out about how many man hours (days?) we spent on it, but it would only make my arms hurt. You have to be keen, or fit (preferably both!). It does sound like we saved a fair bit more $$s than I thought

Shaun did the painting early in the mornings - after overcast nights (to avoid dew) and while the sun was low (not too rapid drying) We had to wait several days between coats because of the weather - hence the light sand between coats, as I recall.

That's about all I can tell you about that project. Give it a go, you can save plenty, maybe get a new sail as well???

[ab1974 1]

We have recently painted our Elliot 7.9.

 

I had a out of work boat painter working for cash. Boat was already in the shed, windows out etc for the full rebuild.

 

We did decks, including non skid masked out around all fittings (which were removed) and topsides. I have rolled 2 pot and antifouled the underwater areas.

 

Cost was about $8k all up, and that included about 100 hours of my time as labourer. Took the painter about 6 weeks full time. Bit that I underestimated was the 'consumables' such as masking tape, plastics, acetone. Must have spent over $1,500 on that stuff. Paint was about the same cost.

 

Cost more that I thought but much less than getting it done in a paint shop.

[ab1974 1]

Time was (as usual) spent in the prep. Included loads of sanding, coving, spraying locker lids, wash boards and a problem that we had with the non skid. Happy with the end result - but cost was lots more than I intended to spend....

[Fish 0]

What have people paid for recent boat paint jobs. Are there any recommendations for a good boat painter...has anyone had a good roller job done that gets close to a spray job and is it much cheaper? I am interested in getting a 42 fter resprayed. Looks like it will will be well in excess of $20,000.

 

Apparently my boat has an Altex primer that was used about 10 years ago which has an adhesion problem.

 

To Answer your question idm28 - yes several boats have had a roller brush paint job that is good and close / the same as a spray job. I don't see a difference, it looks mint and stops the boat from deteriating... (i.e. what paint is supposed to do)

The cost saving is primarily in doing the labouring / prep sanding work yourself.

 

The problem with a spray job is it requires a shed with fully spec'ed ventilation / OSH compliance - to use a shed requires the rig out - doing all of that by a business attracts compliance costs and margin (only fair) but all adds up to killer $$$$$$$ - $20g's in your case.

 

If you have access to cheap hardstand you can then do a lot yourself, or project manage it and hire labour and painters yourself. Don't forget 'disbursements' such as thiners, masking take, sand paper etc, they do add up.

 

If you do do it yourself, get some good experinced advice on the technical points. The cost savings could be considerable.

[MrWolf 0]

Mr Wolf, I can not buy the fact that keying still did not allow the additional coats to stick. That is the entire point of keying. You create a "key" that allows the new coating to "lock" to the surface when normally it would not.

Sorry Wheels but I have come across a situation where everything was done correctly and the new coating came away.

 

Several years ago I observed the prep and repainting of a boat and within a few weeks the paint was coming off in sheets;

- the problem was not with the prep or the application - that was done by professionals with a paint company rep overseeing everything

- The problem was thought to be with the original two pot paint - nothing would stick to it for long,

- Only complete removal of the original paint allowed the new coating to say put, to solve the problem the paint was removed by grit blasting back to bare steel,

- the original paint and new paint was from the same company,

- I believe the owners and the paint company came to an aggrement with fixing the problem,

- The original paint had been there for a long time - perhaps the aged paint was the issue but it had been 'keyed' as per specification

 

 

Mr wheels, as I understand it there were numerous attempts at fixing the problem. It is compatibility problem with an Epoxy undercoat and a different chemical system that does not stick.

Keying does not change the chemical system being wrong.

 

There is plenty of evidence out there that #3 is a terrible product (at least it was when first released) !

[wheels 543]

OK, I stand corrected here then.

[MrWolf 0]

OK, I stand corrected here then.

 

As further evidence there are 62 cases in the past year or so alone of the same problem with Altex #3. All requiring the offending material to be removed.

[wheels 543]

And Altex is coming to the party on that then??

[Guest Dry Reach]

OK, I stand corrected here then.

 

As further evidence there are 62 cases in the past year or so alone of the same problem with Altex #3. All requiring the offending material to be removed.

 

 

What a load of crap! front up with some proof! and show us some evidence of the source! as only onE company would have that info and they would not share it.

 

You Mr murky are making up stories to bacK your arguement.

 

also Wheels, your comment above is spot on and you do not need to apologize for being correct while Mrwolf make an idiot of himself.

 

Thiis comment by him, alone, is rubbish and make no sense and has no basis for reality...

 

In your words Mr Wolf...

"Mr wheels, as I understand it there were numerous attempts at fixing the problem. It is compatibility problem with an Epoxy undercoat and a different chemical system that does not stick."

 

Whats a chemical system? and which one does not stick!?

 

Also, i personally have used the #3 system myself and been involved in hundreds of boats being painted with it and without one, yes one, failure.

 

My own "curent" boat was sprayed by me with this system 8 years ago with no issues. And KM is seeing the results of the test patch on his boat, when done correctly.

 

Finally, please go to TECH TALK and see my latest thread explaining for all to see, the "Reality" of Epoxy undercoats" .

 

PLEASE READ IT , THINK ABOUT IT, AND THEN FORM AN INTELLIGENT OPINION FOR YOUR SELF.

[wheels 543]

I am not going to argue either way, as I have not heard of any issues with this product, but I can not disagree with someone that says they have had so many issues.

Although I am sure that if if there was a problem with the actual make up of the paint formulae and the company then admitted liability, then the news would be spread far and wide in the industry. You would have no chance but not to hear it.

I don't know the exact formulations of individual companies paints. But I do understand enough of the Chemistry to know that you can not formulate an epoxy paint that another coating can not stick to it, Providing the next coat has been applied during the correct time period. Within the correct time period, it is a Chemical bond, not just a simple adherance. So unless Teflon was added and added in a big quantity, I just can not see how a successive coat could not adhere. However, i could well imagine a successive coat being faulty in that it has poor adhesion. So in the case here, it would not be the No3 that was at fault, but the next coat. However, Mr Wolf has made it clear he has had no success with any coating.

Back to the Keying though. I can't get this. If the keying has been done correctly, then you should be able to get a new coat to adhere.

Oh but wait a minute.Unless someone is applying a top coat without a new undercoat. This is a no no and if the technical information is read, you will see it is clearly written. You key and Old Epoxy undercoat because it is very hard to get anything to stick to it once it is fully cured, THEN, you MUST recoat again with another Epoxy Undercoat, either the same or another manufactureres, it doesn;t matter, THEN you can apply a top coat or in some cases a Primer. It is very important to follow the "system". These paints, especially back then, were Systems. Each component did a different job. And i actually think they were supperior to even the lesser modern systems we have today. Dpending on what the material was you were painting and if it was above or below water line, you could have a Barrier/Isolating coat, a Primer/cathodic coating, an Undercoat and then the top coat and even to an extreme, a top coat clear protecting coat.

[Murky 1]

You Mr murky are making up stories to bacK your arguement.

No posts by me in this thread. But nice of you to think of me.

PLEASE READ IT , THINK ABOUT IT, AND THEN FORM AN INTELLIGENT OPINION FOR YOUR SELF.

Good advice.

[wheels 543]

DR meant Mr Wolf.

[MrWolf 0]

DR meant Mr Wolf.

 

The stories I just made up!

 

Came from two very good friends of mine who work in the industry.

[Guest]

Tauranga is definitely the answer to all your problems