Island Time 1,234 Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 If you have problems to view this message click here. ACEA 2015 / Photo Gilles Martin-Raget / Download America’s Cup action continues this week, as the fleet descends upon Gothenburg, Sweden for the Louis Vuitton America’s Cup World Series, with racing from August 29-30. “The Louis Vuitton America’s Cup World Series Gothenburg is an opportunity for the teams to put more points on the board that will count towards the penultimate racing in Bermuda in 2017,” said Russell Coutts, the CEO of the America’s Cup Event Authority (ACEA). “In the first event last month in Portsmouth, Ben Ainslie was clearly better than the rest and deserved to win. Peter Burling was also very impressive in his first start for Emirates Team New Zealand,” continued Coutts. “However, I’m sure the others will be looking to improve, none more so than Artemis which has a boat stacked with Olympic champions. They definitely have the talent and they will certainly want to put on a better performance in front of their home crowd in Gothenburg."The Louis Vuitton America’s Cup World Series leaderboard is as follows:Land Rover BAR - 19 pointsEmirates Team New Zealand - 18ORACLE TEAM USA - 16Groupama Team France - 13Softbank Team Japan - 13Artemis Racing - 11Highlights from the Louis Vuitton Americas Cup World Series Portsmouth can be seen here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_TE9pekMaQ&feature=youtu.be Additional video content is available on the America’s Cup YouTube Channel and at www.americascup.com.The six teams and helmsman in the field for Gothenburg are:Artemis Racing, Nathan OutteridgeEmirates Team New Zealand, Peter BurlingGroupama Team France, Franck CammasLand Rover BAR, Ben AinslieORACLE TEAM USA, Jimmy SpithillSoftbank Team Japan, Dean BarkerTo view sailor profiles and team information, please visit the www.americascup.com website and click on the “Teams” tab. About the Home Team — Artemis RacingSweden boasts a centuries old tradition of sailing and first challenged for the America’s Cup in 1977. Today, some of the world’s finest professional sailors hail from the country, including local hero Olympic champion Freddy Lööf, a critical crew member of the America’s Cup Swedish syndicate ARTEMIS RACING, the hometown favorite heading into Gothenburg.“Artemis Racing has never competed at home before,” said skipper Nathan Outteridge. “So we’re very excited to get there and pay back the support we have in Sweden. It’s going to be awesome. The race course is going to be very tight and compact, which is great for racing and for the spectators to watch it.” Artemis Racing has a multinational crew comprising some of the most successful and respected sailors and designers in the world. Collectively, the sailing team has competed in 23 Olympics Games, winning 11 medals, 7 gold. Artemis Racing represents Kungliga Svenska Segel Sällskapet (KSSS – the Royal Swedish Yacht Club), the fifth-oldest yacht club in the world.Gothenburg Race/Event ScheduleThe hub of the Louis Vuitton America’s Cup World Series will be the 50,000 square meter Race Village in Frihamnen, in the heart of Gothenburg. Visitors can enter the area for free and enjoy activities, concerts and entertainment during the entire event. August 27th is the designated Tech Day when the AC45F’s are launched and the teams prepare for racing. Then Friday, August 28th marks the official Training Day at the Race Arena in Långedrag. Practice racing takes place during this time. Four point scoring races are planned for Saturday and Sunday, August 29th-30th, and the team with the best overall result from these races will win the event. The full event schedule is available at: http://acws-gothenburg.americascup.com/en/gothenburg.html Spectators can follow the racing up close from the shoreline surrounding the Race Arena in Långedrag, from spectator boats on water or on wide screens in the Race Village. Additionally, Oscar II Fort, a facility overlooking the racecourse, will be opened up for visitors for a charge of 50 Krona during the races.How to Watch Around the WorldFor America’s Cup fans around the world, there are a number of different ways to follow the high-octane racing in Gothenburg. Many of the international television broadcast rights holders will show live racing Saturday and Sunday, others will have the highlight show. Networks like BT Sport (UK), Canal+ (FRA), CCTV5+ (CHN) and FOX Sports (AUS) are among those to show live racing. NBC/NBCSN in the US will show highlights. Visit www.americascup.com for additional information on where you can watch the race in your country.A full listing follows at the bottom of this release.AC Goes Digital with the America’s Cup AppTo make it easier for fans to tune in on-the-go, wherever they may be in the world, America’s Cup has launched the new America’s Cup App, available for Android and iOS mobile devices via Google Play and the Apple iTunes store. (The app is not optimized for computers.) The app is free to download and has news, photos and race results. The America’s Cup App also offers enhanced online coverage through the premium AC+ feature. AC+ will feature live streaming coverage of the races (subject to territorial restrictions) as well as an enhanced ‘second screen’ experience featuring on board cameras, video extras, social chat features and behind-the-scenes storytelling. AC+ is a paid service, available for US$7.99 for the Louis Vuitton America's Cup World Series Gothenburg. “AC+ is about giving a more immersive experience to the viewer,” says Antonio Bertone, the Chief Marketing Officer of the 35th America’s Cup. “Via the re-launched America’s Cup App, the viewer can decide how to watch the racing, by following the broadcast or focusing in on a favorite team via the on-board cameras.” Where to Find UsFor general news and information about the 35th America’s Cup, please visit:Online: https://www.americascup.com/Facebook: America’s Cup, https://www.facebook.com/americascupTwitter: #LVACWS, @americascupYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/AmericasCupInstagram: @americascupFor ongoing information specific to the Louis Vuitton America’s Cup World Series Gothenburg, please visit:Online: http://acws-gothenburg.americascup.com/en/home.htmlFacebook: Louis Vuitton America’s Cup World Series Gothenberg, https://www.facebook.com/americascupgothenburg?fref=tsTwitter: #acwsgothenburg, #roadtogothenburg, #LVACWS, #epicsail @acwsgotInstagram: @lvacwsgotLouis Vuitton America's Cup World Series Gothenburg Viewing Options (Mobile App and Broadcast):For live content on the AC App for mobile devices, the following territorial restrictions apply:1) No Live Feed or Live Audio, but with On-Board Cameras and second screen experienceUnited Kingdom and Ireland, Australia, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Mexico, Paraguay, Peru, Uruguay, Venezuela2) No Live Feed or Live Audio and No On-Board CamerasFrance and MonacoSweden:TV12 & TV4 PlayAugust 29 12:30pm – 14:30pmAugust 30 1:00pm – 3:00pm Also live for mobile devices on the AC AppUK and Ireland:BT Sport Europe, live, August 29, 11:30BT Sport Europe, live, August 30, 11:30Repeats on BT Sport 1 and BT Sport 2, check local listingsBBC Red Button - Highlights, August 31, 19:30Also “second screen” experience available live for mobile devices on the AC App (no live race feed).Bermuda: ZFB – Live on Saturday and SundayAlso live for mobile devices on the AC AppUSA: NBC Sport Channel – Sept 4 at 10pm (Pacific Time)Additional broadcast on NBC regional affiliate channels to be confirmed.Also live for mobile devices on the AC AppChina:August 29 23:30pm (Beijing time)August 30 22:30pm (Beijing time)Also live for mobile devices on the AC AppAustralia:Broadcast times on Fox Sports TBCAlso “second screen” (only) live on the AC AppFrance, Monaco, Andorra, French-speaking Switzerland, Mauritius, DOMTOM and sub-Saharan Africa (not South Africa):Live for both days on Canal+ Décalé: 1100 – 1230 GMT.Repeat on Canal+ Sport 29.08: 2214 – 2344 GMT; 30.08: 1710 – 1840 GMTNo live app and no second screen experience in France/MonacoGermany:Live for mobile devices on the AC AppItaly:Live for mobile devices on the AC AppJapan:Live for mobile devices on the AC AppNew Zealand:Live for mobile devices on the AC AppPoland:Saturday, 29/08 Canal+ Sport2, 13:00 Sunday, 30/08 Canal+ Sport, 13:00Also live for mobile devices on the AC AppCentral and South America & Caribbean:Please note all times are Eastern Standard Time (New York Time)ESPN Brazil – Mon, Sept 14 at 4 pmESPN+ Brazil – Wed, Sept 16 at 10 amESPN Caribbean – Wed, Sept 16 at 1 pm (Also live for mobile devices on the AC app)ESPN3 Latin North – Thu, Sept 17 at 11 am Also “second screen” experience available live for mobile devices on the AC App (no live race feed).Portugal:SPORT TV will broadcast both races live. Sat 29/08 – 12:00 SPORT.TV2 LiveSun 30/08 – 12:00 SPORT.TV2 Live (All Portuguese time)Also live for mobile devices on the AC AppMore details are here.MEDIA NOTES: • America’s Cup imagery, rights-free, for editorial and social media use can be accessed at photo.americascup.com. Registration is required.• During race weekends, a race recap press release and imagery are available at the end of each day Saturday and Sunday for global media use• To request media accreditation for the Louis Vuitton America’s Cup World Series Gothenburg, please register at: http://acws-gothenburg.americascup.com/en/media-contact.html.Media accreditation is mandatory for any media wanting to attend a race event and access the Media Centre onsite.• Video content including VNRs will also be available upon request, subject to availability. About the America’s Cup The America's Cup is the oldest trophy in international sport, dating back to 1851, when the yacht America, after which the trophy is named, beat the best of the British fleet in a race around the Isle of Wight, U.K. The trophy won on that day was donated in trust through a Deed of Gift and has since become a symbol of immense achievement. It is perhaps the hardest trophy in sport to win. In it’s 165-year history, only four countries have managed to win the America’s Cup.The America's Cup is currently held by the Golden Gate Yacht Club in San Francisco, U.S.A.. On September 25, 2013, its team, ORACLE TEAM USA, completed the biggest comeback in sports to retain the trophy it had first won in 2010.On December 2, 2014, Bermuda was named as the home of the 35th America’s Cup, with the iconic Great Sound as the race course area where the new America’s Cup Class boats (15-meter, foiling, wing-sailed catamarans) from each competing nation will race for the America’s Cup in May/June 2017.The America’s Cup is honored to partner with Louis Vuitton as the title partner of the Louis Vuitton America’s Cup World Series, the Louis Vuitton America’s Cup Qualifiers and the Louis Vuitton America’s Cup Challenger Playoffs. Louis Vuitton is also the presenting partner of the 35th America’s Cup Match, presented by Louis Vuitton.The America's Cup is also proud to be supported by BMW, Bremont, ORACLE, the Bermuda Tourism Authority, and Gosling’s as well as: Appleby, BF&M, Butterfield, Butterfield & Vallis, Moët & Chandon, the Hamilton Princess & Beach Club, PwC and Sail Racing.America’s Cup updates are also available on your mobile device. Go to the App Store to download the official America’s Cup App. 35th America's Cup Media Contacts Peter RuschDirector of PR and Communications+1 441 519 0382peter.rusch@americascup.comSara GottmanHead of PR+1 857 250 9913sara.gottman@americascup.commedia@americascup.com Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ketchup Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 That's my observation to. The beauty of "the best sports" is their lack of "in your face" TV saturation. The AC is becoming "coronation street" for non yachties. One event every two-four years that is geared for Yachties (competitive and tactical close racing) is what I want. Trying to "sexy it up" for people who just go home, pat the dog, and never set foot on a yacht is soooooo stupid! IMHO. Is this "shortland Street" for rich, white, non sailors? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ketchup Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I think these cats would be more tactical if the courses were longer (say a 50 mile beat) that way the tactics would be more critical and thus more watchable. The desire to put these races "in the freaken marina", makes them too short, and that means one less than perfect start or missing the wing trim by 0.00001mm for 1 second, results in "game over". Its real " blink and you miss it" stuff. Bermuda will be no better. Especially in inferior boats! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,234 Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 The unfortunate fact is that most of the world don't understand sailing. At all. Even though the sailors (us!) find this format less interesting, it's tough. It is not aimed at us, but at entertaining the general population. = crashes and speed are good, so is trash talking and posturing Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,234 Posted August 30, 2015 Author Share Posted August 30, 2015 Emirates Team New Zealand soars to victory in Sweden © ACEA 2015 / Photo Gilles Martin-Raget / Download © ACEA 2015 / Photo Gilles Martin-Raget / Download © ACEA 2015 / Photo Gilles Martin-Raget / Download Emirates Team New Zealand put together a Super Sunday in Sweden, to vault to the top of the leaderboard and claim the Louis Vuitton America’s Cup World Series Gothenburg. It was a difficult day on the tight race course, with light and shifty conditions. But the Kiwis, led by skipper Glenn Ashby and prodigy helmsman Peter Burling showed no fear, posting a 2-1 scoreline in the two double-point races. “It was a tricky afternoon, but our guys had a forecast for it being light like this for quite a few days, so we’ve been preparing for it since we arrived,” Burling said. “We’re really happy to put together two solid races today and to perform under pressure in that last one is very satisfying.” Saturday’s leader, ORACLE TEAM USA, came in to the day on the back of a perfect scoreline in the first two races. But on Sunday it was a different story. Two fourth place finishes dropped the defending champion of the America’s Cup to second place. “We’re disappointed,” said skipper Jimmy Spithill. “We were having a very difficult time speed-wise and with our technique in the lighter winds. We felt good when the breeze was up and we were on the foils. So we have to get back to work.” Land Rover BAR won the first Louis Vuitton America’s Cup World Series on home waters in Portsmouth. Two second place finishes on Saturday had the team poised for another top finish. But a poor start in the last race put the team in third place for the Swedish stop. “It’s frustrating,” admitted skipper Ben Ainslie. “But that’s the nature of the sport. We’re pleased to be on the podium. We got past Artemis Racing and nearly caught ORACLE TEAM USA at the end, so that was important. “In these conditions you need to get a good start and we didn’t do that. It’s hard to work your way back after that. I thought the Kiwis sailed a brilliant second race and deserved to get the win.” SoftBank Team Japan was in fourth place, with a strong final race giving a boost to the team’s confidence heading into the next event in Bermuda. “The goal today was to get better starts and get around the first mark in good shape and we did that,” said skipper Dean Barker. “It didn’t translate into the results we wanted in the first race, but in the second race today, we nailed it. "We also had a couple of good results in the practice races as well, so hopefully we carry that through to Bermuda.” Another team looking for positive signs was Groupama Team France, who raced without regular tactician Arnaud Psarofaghis, on a day that called for good tactics. “It was good to finish third in the last race,” said skipper Franck Cammas. “It’s taken a long time to find a good mode for sailing downwind and that’s held us back. Today was tactically tricky. Even if you start well, the game comes after the start. But we managed the tactics with Thierry Fouchier and myself and we had a bit more time to think because the wind was light.” The day started well for the hometown heroes on Artemis Racing, who have struggled to put together consistently good results. That pattern would continue. An inspiring win in the first race was followed by a last place finish in the second. “We got a ripper of a start in the first one and when you get ahead of the pack in these conditions it can roll into a massive lead,” said skipper Nathan Outteridge. “We’ve been working really hard as a team to fix our issues. Yesterday we sailed well but didn’t get the results which was very discouraging, but I kept reminding the guys it will come, we’re so close. "So to put it all together in that first race was great for our fans, our team and for us on the boat as well. “Of course it would have been nice to follow that up with another solid race, but I guess we’ll have to do that in Bermuda.” The Race to Bermuda starts in earnest now, as the Louis Vuitton America’s Cup World Series shifts to the home of the 2017 America’s Cup from October 16-18. Louis Vuitton America's Cup World Series Gothenburg - Final Results Team - Points Emirates Team NZ - 54 ORACLE TEAM USA - 48 Land Rover BAR - 46 SoftBank Team Japan - 43 Artemis Racing - 42 Groupama Team France 37Overall standings - Louis Vuitton America's Cup World Series(following the first two events): Team - Points Emirates Team New Zealand - 72 Land Rover BAR - 65 ORACLE TEAM USA - 64 SoftBank Team Japan - 56 Artemis Racing - 53 Groupama Team France - 50 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ketchup Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Rehab. The AC used to have some of the greatest match races ever. The tweleve metre was the greatest example of match racing in a design that allowed a bit of difference but tight enough to keep them close. Any new class, in its early development, has some big differences but eventually even out. The Cats will do that in time if they stick to a size/design. But the problem with cats is they are not good to match race in the traditional way where everything is close and speed difference are small. Changing to a smaller design for the next AC is a step backwards. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RushMan 31 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Gretel?? Australia II won the cup in 1983 with its wing keel 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madyottie 82 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 I don't recall a NZ cup boat breaking in half. Iain Murrays aussie boat snapped when they over cooked the rig tension, but I've done that to a wooden fireball, which was no reflection on the design. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Battleship 100 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Yes Australia II had the Bulbed Wing keel. I sailed on the Gretel in the Whitsundays quite a few years ago she was definately a much older late 60's design with a fullish keel. Beautiful sailing boat. http://classics.robbeberking.de/en/angebote/gretel.php Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madyottie 82 Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Dead link, and google drew a blank so I'm still no wiser. Sorry about that! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ketchup Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Correct. They beat the bad guy DC http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~philclarke/cupwinners.html OC Why is Dennis a bad guy? I,d have him on my side any day. He is a tough competitor. And great AC, Olympics and world champ winner. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madyottie 82 Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 OK, so, having spent the last half hour searching the web, including finding the page your link was meant to go to, there is still no word of a NZ cup boat sinking. One Australia sank in 1995. I was slightly mistaken, however, as that campaign was lead by Bertrand, not Murray. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RushMan 31 Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Ketchup. Yes agree. The 3 I remember was GRETEL Australia with The Bulb wing Keel. A new innovation that millionaires money produced. Then the other 2 great match races where KZ 7 the breaking area and innovation of the glass revolution funded by another millionaire { remember the famous USA BAD BOY statement that cost NZ the cup. Why would you build using glass when all others use alluvium unless you wanted to cheat stalling for time for the Fremantle doctor to arrive with conners on one more loss and he was gone and cup probably would have been NZ's. NZ fell for the jibe not having the experience to counter act such a claim and Paul cayard did the same to Peter Blake red boat challenge } and the 34th AC. non Monohull. Why did they change from Monohull yachts? The public got uninterested with two slow boat match racing yachts, like watching paint dry and not understanding match racing. Why where they great to the yachting enthusiast and knowledgeable and not the public. Answer they where match racers for 2 boats per race funded by millionaires, billionaires with ground breaking innovation technology, ideas. The new series are not match races. Ketch when was a match race sailed with 3 or more boats. Even the world match racing calendar race two at a time. Two boats you know who is winning when match racing. Stick 6 or more on the same course and its like looking into a agitator washing machine washing clothes all jumbled. The 34th was impressive because they where large for the first time with new technology like GRETEL, and KZ7. I suppose the races by them selves would not have been that interesting to watch but for the new technology and something special happening. Gretel after some 40 or so years it was thought that AMERICA could not be beaten and they where and the racing for your information was not even close. The yanks got beaten by miles. The news media did not it report it from a purest sailing point on view as great races but "the aussies have stuffed the yanks" and asked how. It was sailed with light winds and the race took ages with not much action except the yank boat was loosing by a long shot which allowed the viewing public to think, say to there mates "bloody good show", longer and with a good reason to drink more rum.. A sight that had never been seen before. Then the wing keel was exposed which if you where bored you suddenly became impressed, interested and joined the discussion and opinion groups . After that KZ 7 Got the yachting fraternity excited but not the general public until GLASS gate appeared. Plus Chris Dickson was setting a new AC YACHT racing record, 32 straight consecutive match race wins during the challenges series at FREEMANTEL AUS. 2 boats again racing on a short course per race. The twelve's where rubbish and NZ proved that when their boat broke into 2 pieces and became sub marine the crew swimming. Oh what a sight to see. All the one design class races have become a bore with small entries, like the Volvo but the Whitbread before the renaming got 20,000 or more at the viaduct basin at 01 hrs and later to see the vessels arrive. I was there. It was so packed that if some person gave the crowd a shove the persons on the edge went for a swim. That was also exciting it kept, [ like a Mexican wave does when there is not much happening at other sporting activities ] the crowds entertained. The difference the boats where all different sizes, shapes, designers concepts, sail, rig configuration for comparisons all racing against each other which the present AC format does not, plus the extreme series from a public, sailor viewing point on view are boring, confusing as they are piddley small like the new AC's, with the squabbling, that goes on which is part and parcel the millionaires, billionaires like doing to each other to get their egos stroked with the extreme Cats series disillusioning the public and making them non interested. Which one class is growing, they are all struggling to get entries. ONE Size design has nothing to do with getting the public excited. What gets the crowds excited is perhaps a small boat beating a larger boat, the ordinary beating the giants, and non professionals beating professionals. Watch some of the old roman day HISTORY movies. What got the crowds roaring? Racing close and speed differences small. I must have been watching a different race when barker was winning by more that a mile and the cup was NZ's when the course, the rules that where designed to allowed the yanks to blow the whistle and laugh got you again which Dalton should have thrown a watch over the course by computer and protested, be fore the racing started but he did not did he. That is part of the AC Cup not only who has the biggest boat, the fastest, who spending the most money but who has the most intelligence. OC Is there anything in this post that is correct? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Romany 162 Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Rushman, please stop encouraging him - your tag line says it all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RushMan 31 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Rushman, please stop encouraging him - your tag line says it all. Did I miss a memo? Should I know who rehab was in a previous life? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,234 Posted September 13, 2015 Author Share Posted September 13, 2015 He's not really hiding, read his signature. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ketchup Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Is there anything in this post that is correct?Yes,... the first word "ketchup" He's always right Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ketchup Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Did I miss a memo? Should I know who rehab was in a previous life? Is'nt he Advanced Member? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ketchup Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Try NZL 82 IT buckled and took on water flooding the cockpit from memory. NZL 82 retired due to multiple gear failures in the rigging. NZL 82 was completely ineffective, losing 0–5 to the challenger Allingi. The defeat was largely due to NZL 82 's lack of reliability and Russell Coutts on the helm Allingi. Other equipment snapped due to increased stress caused by the weight of water in the boat they also had sail hoisting problems and winch problems. OC Jeez OC, NZL 82 (the,hula boat) did not buckle at all, the Hull was 100% fine! The fact$ are Dean Barker and Tom Scnakenberg inherited a team (TNZ) from Blake, Sefton and co... that was asset stripped and fiscally challenged (which is why Coutts and co tried to get Bertereli's money then left when this was frowned upon) So with little money for masts, etc... Barker and Schnaks, gambled on a Hulas, and missed key design (cockpit venturis,) and reliability (masts/booms) factors. What did buckle was first a boom design/breakage, then a "slow draining" cockpit that carried A lot of water (enter the bucket),then, the only race ready mast, they had sailed all summer, broke. Money ultimately cost NZ the Cup. The boat was competitive, but there was also issues with the crew... Bertrand Pace,Hamish Pepper, and Barker were not up to the level of Russ, Brad, and Murray 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ketchup Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 OC, I dont know what you smoke but ... Nothing Buckled! Sure some assets remained but the most valuable asset TNZ had was the millions of cash in the coffers that were not handed over to Coutts, then Schnaks. It was the "cash", or lack of it that drove the decisions that ultimately led to poor (some would say bleeding edge) design, breakages, and a team that has really never recovered. And remember there is one person, from that team, that has Been in every losing challange since. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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