Long coastal and offshore race fleets

[Ed 143]

Undoubtedly BP,  some of the best quality racing that I have done in recent years was in the One Ton Cup revisited two years ago, widely disparate boats well handicapped and every dog had his day, oh and they were by todays standards small cheap local non planing boats.

Really made us all think - and the fleet was populated heavily by sailmakers or ex sailmakers there because they wanted to be, rather than for business.....

Sorry, that one tonne cup could have been so much better. The entry bar was set way to high by forcing people to get an endorsed IRC certificate. (I think they dropped the endorsed bit in the end, but still a big cost/hassle ). The divisions those boats race in now don't have IRC fleets in NZ, only PHRF. Sundance may have one or two other around with IRC, but not many.

Also it was glorified harbour racing, there was no distance/offshore race, just the odd passage race round the gulf islands.

 

As for populated by sailmakers, we didn't have any on our boat, don't think sundance did either. OK Rainbow had arguably the greatest ring in crew ever assembled, Ken Fyfe was on the  Lidguard Demon I think, possibly BooBoo on Wai Anwia for a couple of days, not exactly stacked though.

 

But where were the rest of the 1104's? What about any of the other IOR 3 boats, shadow, ex tension?? (admittedly these don't race regularly if at all these days)....complete no shows. Young Nick never showed, not quite sure why.

 

It was good to get out with similar sized boats(except for sundance who regulary did a horizon job as they should), but there were only 6 of us. As for cheap, I hate to think how much money was spent on Rainbow II, and a 36-38ft boats costs pretty much the same to run whether its 5 or 35 years old.

[jonathan 4]

Is there anywhere you can download an analysis of all yacht entries/exits from NZ per year etc?

Would be interesting to see how the NZ cruising fleet has grown/diminished over the years...

[waikiore 398]

Ed you miss my point, yes we didnt have a long distance race, but these boats were all out there in the NZ fleet some racing some not and given time we could have rounded up a heap more, even the walkers coming down to the viaduct in the afternoon were heard to exclaim that isnt the real Rainbow 11 or the real Waianiwa is it ? As they looked past the assembled Volvo fleet in port, so people do remember when yachting caught the imagination of the public back then. Also you missed the great Rosco on the lidgard IMP. And that scow being mother ship to sundance was helmed by a well known sailmaker from up kingsland way...

[jonathan 4]

As i see it the problems for REAL GROWTH in keelboat racing in NZ 

 

All the new boats are too expensive for current small boat particpants - thus no new class.. well there is its just 50 +  foot long

All the old boats are different and people are sick of phrf racing lottery

Lots of our race results  are predetermined by weather ie uphill vs downhill 

Not enough windward / leeward racing.

Club handicaps worse the PHRF

Costs thousands to park your boat as needs to be close to westhaven (i do see increasing panmure fleets tho)

 

I cant see why offshore race changes the above at all, just adds $$$$ to the misery...

 

more and more racers turning to cruising... which has added benefit - you can take the kids along.

 

if you just want muck around in yachts and drink rum afterwards none of the above would matter..... as is all good, lots of fun etc...   but as a place to park 100-200k and seriously compete in a sport... nah

[Ed 143]

But how many of them have raced since?

 

Pacific Sundance, regularly, but did before hand

Revolution, regularly, but did beforehand

Wai Aniwa, does a bit

Result, did one ssanz race then was sold into retirement

Impact (the demon) hasen't raced since as far as I can tell

Rainbow II hasn't raced again either

 

So really it did nothing for the long coastal and offshore race fleets.

Go back 30 odd years and I think Result took line on the Round North Island, also did quite a few trips out to the islands! Capable boats for sure but just not used to their potential anymore....

[Ed 143]

As i see it the problems for REAL GROWTH in keelboat racing in NZ 

 

All the new boats are too expensive for current small boat particpants - thus no new class.. well there is its just 50 +  foot long

All the old boats are different and people are sick of phrf racing lottery

Lots of our race results  are predetermined by weather ie uphill vs downhill 

Not enough windward / leeward racing.

Club handicaps worse the PHRF

Costs thousands to park your boat as needs to be close to westhaven (i do see increasing panmure fleets tho)

 

I cant see why offshore race changes the above at all, just adds $$$$ to the misery...

 

more and more racers turning to cruising... which has added benefit - you can take the kids along.

 

if you just want muck around in yachts and drink rum afterwards none of the above would matter..... as is all good, lots of fun etc...   but as a place to park 100-200k and seriously compete in a sport... nah

That's why you need an 8.5 multihull, much cheaper to own and park, less crew, active fleet and box rule racing as well as handicap 

[ratings 0]

Jonathan , is pretty close to the answer it is the PHRF handicap it is a lottery, Have a look at the PICMARINE GOLD CUP the same yachts  show up all the time.on handicap, that is one of the reasons the owners are losing interest, there are owners talking about not doing it next year because there is no chance of getting a good placing under  PHRF as it stands at the moment even if your yacht is well sailed

so what is the answer IRC?

,

[Ed 143]

Any time correction factor for diverse boat styles will be a lottery dependent on conditions, accurate handicapping (whether based on calculation like IRC, or an upper percentile performance band like racetrack) only really works amongst boats with generally similar designs.

[Battleship 100]

Exactly and as fleets shrink the less of these similar designs in the same handicap bracket there are to race against.

IRC is good if you have the cash, want to buy a stock Euro boat and go and race. PHRF works well for most of us who have not so much cash but can buy a cheaper Kiwi boat then blow all our rent and food money tweaking it.

[markm 30]

Ratings, I know you're a fan of IRC and not one of PHRF, the below is how the land currently lies though.

 

- There are only 20 odd boats in NZ with IRC, excluding the offshore boats.
- IRC nationals, three divisions offered, ended up with one division, three TP52s competing
- RNI, only two boats with valid certificates from 28 boats
- the Gold Cup sited, 28 boats but only 4 with IRC and only three regular

 

For all practical purposes IRC iss dead here.

Keeping in mind the useful observation that if you keep trying the same things don't be surprised if you keep getting the same result, what do you propose to change this around?

 

Clubs have tried emphaasizing IRC as the major prize, but it ceases to be credible when less than half the fleet are entries.

 

You can try convincing people IRC rewards the best sailed boat, good luck.  The perception is IRC favours very specific types of boats and you can either sell your current boat and spend a lot of money getting one of those or not bother turning up.  That there's more than a grain of truth to that doesn't help.

 

And then there's things like optimising, tell most kiwi sailors to optimise their boats (read put away their code zeroes) for a rule and they'll tell you to find another rule.

 

My question is serious, what do you propose be done?

[harrytom 642]

Exactly and as fleets shrink the less of these similar designs in the same handicap bracket there are to race against.

IRC is good if you have the cash, want to buy a stock Euro boat and go and race. PHRF works well for most of us who have not so much cash but can buy a cheaper Kiwi boat then blow all our rent and food money tweaking it.

1970 to early 1980s,highlight for as a boy was watching the starts of the rnzys off orakei wharf,particularly the 1st/A class division. Sure the vessels are older now and costs to maintain but surely even back then with lower incomes etc these yachts were there racing.Whats changed?7 day week,on call work time?We have roughly 400 members and say 100 yachts from cruisers to racers,take the last long weekend,friday night race to bottom end and could only muster 4 yachts and 2 for the monday return race,other 2 went home sunday,commitments else where so no race,general harbour races lucky to get 5 and we are only there to make up numbers.Races are handicapped using tcf I think . Do you blame YNZ for over the top safety rules as far as categories go?All our races are cat4 with a few that require life lines to cat3 so not over the top to comply. Yachts too cheap as just about anyone can buy one now!(older boats)    What ever happened to the good old around waiheke race from maraetai?that was one I enjoyed as you could select spinnaker or non spinnaker and non spinnaker could not use composite sails. Lucky our club races sunday or I would not be a starter.Work Tuesday to Saturday Midnight to Midday.

 

Maybe there is rome if promoted for older vessels to race without the latest,composite sails but back to basic yachts. Would love to race at RYC/PCC winter or summer but being the average run of the mill yacht you know exactly where I would finish so no real point,not going to prove anything apart from have a sail which I can do now with the family.  Do overseas countries get big fleets or are they dwindling as well?

[Battleship 100]

Agree with all that Mark,  I am not a fan of IRC and think that PHRF has really improved over the last 5 years or so.

 

I don't think the handicaps or safety are so much are to blame for the dwindling fleet, it is just that a lot more of us are time poor.

[ScottiE 174]

Blaming poor turnouts on handicapping is just ridiculous.  If you are that worried about it, go race a smaller one class boat in a levels regatta - got no one else to blame for your result but yourself!

 

Willow - I also think that % disposable income for most is significantly lower than what it was in the 70's and 80's and that adjusted boating costs "per boat length" (as an income independent measure say) have gone up significantly.  Just contrributes to making it that much harder.  Time poor is my big issue.

 

HT - that is a spiralling arguement.  You don't see the point so you don't race - others have the same or similar view - no one shows up.  The only answer I have to that is to somehow try and be proactive and convince others to come out for a play with you.  That's not easy - for example - Clipper really wants me to (and I really want to as well) come play this weekend in the solo but just can't see my way past the committments we have this weekend.  At least he tried.  I'll be trying as well for more cruising oriented boats in the river in the future.

 

Maybe there is rome if promoted for older vessels to race without the latest,composite sails but back to basic yachts. Would love to race at RYC/PCC winter or summer but being the average run of the mill yacht you know exactly where I would finish so no real point,not going to prove anything apart from have asail which I can do now with the family.  Do overseas countries get big fleets or are they dwindling as well?

[harrytom 642]

Blaming poor turnouts on handicapping is just ridiculous.  If you are that worried about it, go race a smaller one class boat in a levels regatta - got no one else to blame for your result but yourself!

 

Willow - I also think that % disposable income for most is significantly lower than what it was in the 70's and 80's and that adjusted boating costs "per boat length" (as an income independent measure say) have gone up significantly.  Just contrributes to making it that much harder.  Time poor is my big issue.

 

HT - that is a spiralling arguement.  You don't see the point so you don't race - others have the same or similar view - no one shows up.  The only answer I have to that is to somehow try and be proactive and convince others to come out for a play with you.  That's not easy - for example - Clipper really wants me to (and I really want to as well) come play this weekend in the solo but just can't see my way past the committments we have this weekend.  At least he tried.  I'll be trying as well for more cruising oriented boats in the river in the future.

So you need to work on your friends to get some multis in for the 3legged 2handed pybc event  10th to 12th march,we will be in the under 30ft division,bbq at Kawau Saturday night,see you there??

[ScottiE 174]

see - its really not that hard after all!

 

I know GBE was keen to do this last year so ya never know!

[ratings 0]

Time poor is the main reason ,  

The IRC nationals might be at the wrong time of the year?

[Clipper 343]

Or just no ones cares about IRC?

[jonathan 4]

dinghy fleets are  growing in AKL, no marina fees, low cost, true class designs etc

 

just sayin

 

many of these fleets cost less then westhaven fee;s alone.....

 

and no need for handicaps

 

 

racing is racing, our old mismatched fleet are turning into cruisers as its impossible to find a class left barring y88 and perhaps bumper boats 

 

y11, ross 9.3 so many possible classes have fallen apart as people "optimised" them so they could win on phrf in coastal etc, prods gennys etc etc

[Clipper 343]

yup, I want a dinghy as well....

[dutyfree 170]

I think cost and time are the big drain.  I raced for approx 10 years on a 1020. Often twice a week i.e. week nite and then in the weekend.  I was single, i was not paying, I could get out of work just before 5 and in those days I could get to Pine Harbour in 30/40 min from Newmarket.  I bought my own yacht, but kept racing on other peoples.  Cheaper, I dont need to be skipper.

 

Then started racing out of Westhaven, had my own boat there too.  Then 12m berth ~500 month, now, ~750, cant get out of work anymore, married kids, friends caught in the tech race of new sails, rudders, keels etc, massive $$ for a fraction more speed.  Boats went from 30ft to 40ft to 50ft to canting etc, so the cost become prohibitive or the fleet you are in shrinks etc.  Technique and  consequence of stuffing up elevated with complexity and so I gave up.  I was doing it for fun, now I don't do any racing and I don't know people that do, they have retired as well.

 

People talk about what we need is a one design, remember that Blakewell White thing?  What they built one or two?

 

People are time poor these days.  Ski club, I gave that away, cheaper to just rent off Book a Bach and more convenient than doing working bees etc, only to find I spent more time on working bees than skiing most years.

 

Rambling...over