rigger 47 Posted September 4, 2010 Share Posted September 4, 2010 This thread has a fair bit of drift in it, left it in might entertain... Also has info about LED lights PLEASE -if you have updates for info in this thread add a reply. Also Squid and others - let me know if I'm getting a bit off the idea for the tech talk. and if there are other old threads people would like me to dredge up PM me. ======================= Losing weight aloft Knot Me Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: Losing weight aloft OK I'm getting serious now and have decided it's pimp my boat time. As many would say, knot before time and one in 2 of my Class 'Oh Crap, we are in for it now'. Fingers crossed both are correct I have a mainsail that weights about the same as a small car which at 1st I didn't like but now I've found out it's happy places, I quite do. But when sailing I have a lot of weight aloft... in the big scheme of my tip truck boat. I've taken over 25% (nearly 50% on a wet day) out of the halyard weights alone by getting jiggy with the existing and what's more they run twice as good and look sexier. Just on 8kg out of the vang system ropes yet while doubling it's purchase. We've been pleasantly surprised at actually how much you can trim out of rope weights if done properly. Yes, we have tested and lost none of the good things like strength and so on. The wind gear committed suicide overboard during a Winter Series race so a bit gone there as well plus the associated wires. Knot a big lose, it didn't go anyway or I couldn't find the On switch. And rest assured Coastguard, that VHF wire was a mistaken identity thing but I have 2 hand helds so still on the air. Now to the other crap up there. One day when the Yachting Authorities finally drag themselves out of the 19th Century we maybe able to use LED lights. In the meantime does anyone know what 2 Amps weight? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- wheels Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:21 pm Quote: In the meantime does anyone know what 2 Amps weight? 2 A as in current? That's a small light. Do you mean 20A ? It doesn't matter anyway. The weight cancels out due to the current running up one wire and then down the other -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Knot Me Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:35 pm 25W bulb, so 25/12=2 or is my kindergarten level of lectronics knowledge wrong. So you're saying I have 2 going up and 2 coming back down so twice the weight I though I had, bugger I have a thingy that will only need about 0.2A so a shitload lighter but the bloody old school rules don't allow it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- wheels Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:50 pm I thought those Lopo lights and Hella had been approved. Is that not the case?? That was why I thought they cost so damn much. It's surely just a case of approval for a 1 mile and 2 mile rating. The rules don't actually sate what type of bulb can or can't be used, it just has to have the 2 mile and 1 mile visibility. The Hella bulbs have been tested and approved to have that distance visibility. So surely if the LED units have the same ability, then they should fit the rules. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Knot Me Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:30 pm The yacht racing rules don't say anything about type but do state 10 or 25Watt. My beasty has been Cat 2 so has the 25W and I'm up to something which requires it to stay so. LED's aren't technically legal until the rules are changed. And believe it or knot I am a stickler for the rules, yacht racing ones if not many others. I will push them into deep dark corners and use the literal meaning of them as opposed to the 'intent' but busting them only mean hollow victories and there is no warm fuzzies in hollow. By 'intent' I mean many are written with an intention of an outcome. I work on the theory that if the 'intention' is what they wanted why didn't they write that in the first place. Example - back in the day I had a polystyrene outboard and got protested. I won the protest as no where in the rules did it say the motor actually had to push the boat or even go. Sure it was the intention but the intention wasn't what was written in the rule book. The same applied to the Whitbread boats we supplied plastic anchor chain to. The rules never said you had to use heavy steel stuff only 'chain'. By the way don't go down those paths now, the rules have been changed to actually read what the intention of them is. I wonder why So the intent of the rules are to have 25W which is very do able using a LED but the rules say 25 Watt and LED's aren't. Sure I could swap them and I'd say no-one would be the wiser except me. Damn I hate having a conscience. If you're knot racing this LED thing doesn't matter. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PaulR Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:01 pm wheels wrote: Quote: In the meantime does anyone know what 2 Amps weight? 2 A as in current? That's a small light. Do you mean 20A ? It doesn't matter anyway. The weight cancels out due to the current running up one wire and then down the other Unless of course you have an all round anchor light as well up there. Now by sharing a common negative attitude, you will now become top heavy at the masthead as you will have 2 positive attitudes each going up 2ammps totalling 4 ammmmps but only the same negative attitude of 2 ammps down. Thus slowly accumulating at the masthead, you will gain ammps trapped up there. It gets even worse if you have a smaller windex light. Now 3 positives up and only 1 negative down, so you will be gaining 3 ammmps at the masthead. This is because the Windex light is not as big, only 1 amp. There is also available a masthead light that incorporates a strobe. This is favoured by americans and at one time, a morse key in the circuit would allow you to tell the other boats arround your name and pass messages. This could be essential if you want to tell Australian Customs of your latest update arrival ETA. Australia is a long way away, thankgoodness, so you will nees at least: 25 am,mmm,mmm,mmm,mmm,mmm,mmm,mmm,mmmps. See other threads about Australian Customs. Unfortunately now you will have 28 positives going up and still just the same 2 negatives comming down. This means that the mastheat gets heavy very quickly, 26 loads at a time, which is why americans now only use the strobes in cases of emergency. Such emergiencies are often caused by all the extra amps going up and unable to come down, and the weight decreases the yachts stability, increases heeling and makes life seriously uncomfortable, if not down right dangerous. Luckily, steaming and deck lights are rarely mounted above the spreaders, so the overweighting at the spreaders is not that critical. As proof of this problem, one needs look no further than the newest super yacht. There you can see that the latest thinking and design concepts have required the masts and keels to be so much bigger to balance the extra lights including those Red above Green sailing lights and those Red air craft anti collision lights so necessary. It is also important, just like at home, to switch OFF all UNUSED power outlets, so the electricty does NOT LEAK out all over the floor, You will be aware how often this causes you to kick and bump into things around the house and in work places. OSH is very strong on safety. One thing that is very important on yachts, is to make sure you regularily pump the bilges. This pumps overboard all the power leakage that builds up on marinas. Dehumidifiers do help, but again caution must be exercised. So start being safer by SWITCHING off all outlets that do NOT have plus in them. Just as in the dams or the home bath, a plug stops leakage. Remove the plug and all the power drains away. Hence the problem in the South Island with the low levels of power storage. Just wait. Those TV adds will be baxck on soon. I rest my case. Time for a Mt Gay and watch the Silver Ferns. Here again shortages are becomming more obvious. The skirt lengths get shorter every time I watch!! Cheers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SloopJohnB Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:16 pm wheels wrote: Quote: In the meantime does anyone know what 2 Amps weight? 2 A as in current? That's a small light. Do you mean 20A ? It doesn't matter anyway. The weight cancels out due to the current running up one wire and then down the other I think it only works for ac not dc -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Knot Me Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:27 pm Holy crap, it's a wonder my beast just doesn't fall over in the marina The fecking new light I have has a Strobe in it, where's my hammer, I'll quickly sort that one. Windex? Nope to tight to have an extra light and stealing the excess rays from the tri-colour. Anchor light, nope solar LED down low, nice. Steaming light, no worries about it's power usage and even if it's huge I don't care. That is the shop where it is still sittings problem Deck lights, nope. Seen my toes? I go forward by touch which at the same time gives everyone aboard a bloody good idea where I am so a more OSH friendly option. What's more I can track my path the next morning by using the trail of blood. So you're saying that if after I turn the tri-colour off I should pull the plug out at the bottom and let all the amps drain out by gravity. After that make sure to remember to pump the bilge in case there is a nasty Amp build up and I stub my toes again? What's AC doing on my boat, hasn't he got one of his own? I meet him briefly yesterday and did you know he wears a shirt that is the same colours as a $50. Knot just one of the colours, the whole lot. I bet you really kneed to know that -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- wheels Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:09 pm They make a $50?? Point all your lights aft. That way the photons coming off at the speed of light will help propel you forward. Have the wire coming back down slightly bigger than the one going up. That way the Amps will drain back down really quick and should stop build up at the mast head. Do not reverse polarity. Or the bulb will suck the light in and you will have a black hole form at the mast head. Of course that could wok out for the better. You may create a worm hole and cross the finish line at the same tiome you cross the start. Try beating us then Earnesto. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MrWolf Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:28 am it is legal to use led lights so long as they meet the minimum visibility requirements. my source is a ynz safety inspector. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PaulR Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:48 am The LOPOLIGHT LED lights have all the LLOYDS UK and German / Danish EC tests as well. The have a stackable system so it is easy to add an anchor light to tricolour and they even have a windex top cover, according to brochure in fitting instructions. Lightweight and fully sealed. seems ideal. Something like 100,000 hours life I recall. Anyway more than enough weekends night sailing for years if you do the maths. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- grant Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:12 am the Hella lights are all up to standard as well, when they were developed (in NZ) i thinmk they tested a few of the existing lights against the standards and were unimpressed with the results.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MrWolf Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:44 am NZ sailors were getting raped on LED prices but as cheap chinese competition has come into the country the big two "lopolights" and "hella" have both steadily been dropping their prices to compete. Both have YNZ legal nav lights in their range. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Knot Me Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:13 am MrWolf wrote: it is legal to use led lights so long as they meet the minimum visibility requirements. my source is a ynz safety inspector. They are not illegal unless you are racing, the rules state 25W and LEDs, while some are brighter, aren't 25W (or 10 as the case maybe), the bigger power users are only 5W odd. If not racing they are perfectly fine and very legal if you get the right ones. LED sidelights are so on are fine, it's just the masthead while racing. There are piles of good priced LED's available. Burnsco $100 + odd I'm told but the exact same one at Jay Car is $30 odd. It's all about where you shop babe I'm helping a mate get a business up and running and it's do to with the next generation of SMT LED type stuff. Looking at the numbers, many people selling LED gear in NZ and running profit margins that even banks would gasp at. But it won't last, LED's are about to be superseded so the prices will plummet. Took another 1/2kg out of a halyard this morning, nice. I'm saving so much weight with the ropes I maybe able to carry those 2 nasty amps Actually the weight of the amps isn't really the biggie, I just want to redirect them to the stereo instead -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MrWolf Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:36 pm I think that what has occured is that the safety inspectors have received a revised position re LED. 25W applies to standard bulbs only and the LED one's must be of least equivalent brightness. If this is not the case then there a couple of leading mast manufacturers fitting lED's all the time to race boats which would then be illegal (we have never received a complaint from either owners or measurers). Get with the latest trends mr Me, and use the lower drawing LED's ! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Knot Me Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:15 pm That's the target MrW, amperage savings. So some possibly naughty mast makers is there I think it's one of those things that are seriously unlikely to be pinged on but the rules do 'state' 25W not any light type. Bit like anchors I think, many are using many that aren't 'listed' as such and again anyone would be pretty damn sad to pull you up over it. But looking at the big scheme of things if everyone did these small but technically naughty thing they could gain a big advantage over one who doesn't. Pick me for example, a litewight beast where weight matters. Go LED masthead and I can then lose many kilos of battery weight and if you wanted to get real anal some weight in the wire size as well. Alloy Spade at 4kg against everyone else using 8-10 or more kg. I'm using 7mm chain where most of my class are on 8, some even 10mm. I gain at least another 6kg there or more over the 10mm boats. So 3 seemingly insignificant tweaks and I'm suddenly pushing 20 + kg lighter then the other class boats next to me. There are many more of these little tweaks out there as well so some serious savings to be had. As it is today and due to my job I have stronger halyards then everyone else and mine are only 1/2 the other boats weight. 5kg out of my mast is a 5kg more than the rest of the class. As Mr Wolf will point out 1kg more than you need up there is nothing but bad. I took 25% (about 45% on a wet day) out of a F1020 main halyard on Friday with zero lose of strength and even increased it's performance. Tweak tweak but trying to do it legally at the same time. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fossil Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:20 pm You bring up an interesting point. I was preparing a boat for a series in the U.S. and produced my NZ/Aus emergency nav lights. "No good" I was told,"not 25 watt" The're ok in NZ,I said, but They were adamant. When I asked for the solution I was told to fit a trilight. We had a trilight as well as pulpit lights, both running on the same battery source. When I told them we had a trilight, that was fine. I guess they don't allow for battery failure. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Knot Me Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:26 pm Just spoke with another YNZ Inspector that races himself and he said the rules say 25W so it must be that to comply. But he did also say that he and none of the others as far as he knew would ever go up and check as long as the light was bright enough. When ask what would happen if I swapped to LED today and raced tomorrow, he said 'Who would know but if someone did find out, you're busted'. So one of those do it and hope no-one ever looks things. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ailys Comet Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:19 pm Am I missing something? Can't an LED unit be made that transmits the same brightness as 25W conventional buld but draws less than 25W power? And can't this brightness equivalence be easily proved (probably by the manufacturer)? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- wheels Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:22 pm YES!! But as KM states, it is a racing rules issue, not a regs issue -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Slacko Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:44 pm The Regs talk about visible distance not bulb wattage i think, so the LED lights once the brightness has been proven are acceptable. I guess the 25 Watt statement in the racing rules was written to be easier to enforce if required. With the advent of LED lights, the rules do need a rewrite. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- wheels Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:53 pm Well I don't know what the racing rules are. But Cat 2 is the same as all the regs pertaining to Vessel size and visible distance of light for that size. It doesn't say 25W. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ailys Comet Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:57 pm Fack it. Go for it and be an agent of change. Crew.org will cover the trial. Rules are made to be broken when they don't make sense. That's the basis on which mankind evolves. The other driver being man's propensity to always live one step beyond his means. A great motivator to progress, that one. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PaulR Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:37 pm Problem really is the 2004-2008 Safety Regs were written in basically 2003; before the development and acceptance by overseas authorities of the "new" LED navigation lights. Hopefully the new 2009-2013 Safety Regs will allow LED lights. The real intention is to make sure the nav lights are "BRIGHT" to be seen, not cloudy over opaque undersized, no focused / beveled lenses are used. There is a clause about discression and about adequate size, strength etc for any gear. Overseas yachts have discression if the item meets their national standards. Further the Safety Regs are only "MIMIMUM" standards to meet. there is nothing stopping you having more, bigger or stronger gear. It would be an interesting exercise to test the different lights. 2 years ago I fitted a LED Stern Light and tested it and comments from people at the marina gate were about "how bright" and "how white" the LED stern light was. It is times like this that YachtingNZ should put on their website planned changes to Safety Regulations. This will help our buying and refitting decisions. So the new Safety Regulations are to be published in a seperate book from the Racing Rules, due out in November, well after the start of the sailing season and the first major race being the Coastal Classic and the Gold Cup Series. Must be a Christmas Stocking Filler. So without the "DRAFT" changes on the web, nobody knows. Nobody can comment and make suggestions. Please be assured that I am not commenting upon the inspectors. In fact I have stated before that I have had many interesting discussions with Michael Churchhouse, Chief Inspector. Rather it's the YNZ policy of keeping us collectively in the dark. I'm sure the committee put a lot of hard work in reviewing the safety Regulations, as past committes have done before them. It should be SIMPLE to have an ongoing list of "IDEAS" for changes, active on their website. Years ago when doing the Sydney Hobart, we had to "grow" our danbuoy by about a foot, because the Australian rules were different to NZ rules. I think these differences have been sorted. However if you look at all the European boats being imported by NZ agents, then one should expect the agents make sure the boats meet the NZ Safety Regs. They DON'T as I can walk down many marinas and see such boats with items that just fail to meet the NZ rules. Try it yourself. BTW I'm not an inspector!! Just one who believes a Safety Inspection should be a simple ticking exercise by the inspector. You have the suitable gear or you don't. Simple. Cheers, Mt Gay Time -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- wheels Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:44 pm There was an article in a Practicle boating mag on LED lights and they came to the conclusion that many of the lights available were dismal. They found Bike LED lights to out perform many of the boating ones. Certainly it is possible to get LED bright enough. You only have to see the Red lights on Trucks these days to realise it is possible. But I have to say, with the price of the units like Lopo and Hella, I would expect better performance. I really don't think they are as good as a 25W bulb. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- pwederell Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:01 pm You're all missing the point in a big way. KM wants to make his mast lighter, not darker. http://www.geocities.com/bobz299/lowe.jpg -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lunar7 Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:36 pm OK, All navigation lamps must comply with COLREGS, which sets out the required brightness and vertical and horizontal visibility angles. NOT all LED nav lights are equal..... or meet COLREGS Check the power consumption, should be 2-3watts per function The biggest problem with most nav lights is making sure they are fitted correctly Price, You pay for what you get, if the retailer/manufacture can't provide proof of compliance with COLREGS, then ask yourself if you think its likely to be approved. Navigation lights are a safety item, and you should expect that you would need to prove they meet the standard. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- W.T Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:59 pm It's not just the weight of the light itself. It's the whole system weight. when we converted all nav and interior lighting on WT from standard bulbs to Lopo LED we saved about 8kg total. If you make the switch to LED you also need to run correct cables and power supply to reflect the reduced energy requirement. We replaced out standard copper lighting wiring for Boeing aviation cable. (1.5mm dia) Just in wiring alone be dropped 200g from the rig and about 800g from the boat. But because we could do a coastal on a 30ah battery instead of 75ah we saved 7kg there also. So if you want to reduce meaningful weight, do the wiring also. And look at getting rid of the big battery also. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Murky Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:27 am Fantastic advice WT, although I guess we are probably not going to find Boeing aviation cable on the shelf at Sailors Corner or Burnsco. A new opportunity for them perhaps. You did tell them you were taking it out of the plane didn't you...it wasn't that Qantas flight that forgot which way was up over Western Australia? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Knot Me Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:22 am Just been sussing the rule history and I have noticed a change which I didn't pick up on at the time. The last change to the rule was 2005 and in that the 10W V's 25W cut-off went to boat length. Under 12mt needs a 10W minimum and over a 25W. Yes Lunar7, many LEDS don't cut the mustard. The one I have is the latest SMT LED so a serious puppies. Approved by US CG to meet the minimum 5nm range. These new ones get around brightness and colour issues the previous LED's had. That being these aren't blue or knot blue enough that your Stb light goes to blue, an issue the old ones had. I one I have uses 4-5W or 400mA as opposed to the 2A my existing does. So hopefully lighter and brighter masthead for me. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rising Damp Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:25 am One Observation on LEDs from the Simrad: We had run the GPS all day and pretty much drained the battery with it. When the Nav Lights got low on power the LED ones just turned off! No dimming or anything, just off. Could be a downside of LEDs. Lucky we were at been rock when they did die! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- rigger Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:31 am Knot Me wrote: Yes Lunar7, many LEDS don't cut the mustard. The one I have is the latest SMT LED so a serious puppies. Approved by US CG to meet the minimum 5nm range. These new ones get around brightness and colour issues the previous LED's had. That being these aren't blue or knot blue enough that your Stb light goes to blue, an issue the old ones had. I one I have uses 4-5W or 400mA as opposed to the 2A my existing does. So hopefully lighter and brighter masthead for me. Had heard that the "Blue" colour also occured if you put a White LED behind a green lense, not sure how true that is as I have not had a play to see what happens, have just fitted 2nm US CG approved side lights to my boat, not intending to race so no issue there -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Knot Me Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:25 am Yeah a lot of the white LEDs are actually 'blue'. It sure was a problem but knot sure if it still is but I get the impression it maybe on some types still. There is also some far better ways of setting them up when talking voltage conditioning. The one I have has in-build voltage tickling and will take anything between 8 and 30volt. A GPS needed in daylight during the Simrad??? What an embarrassing thing to have to say Knot to mention putting down on paper somebody both cheated and made themselves a safety hazard for the rest of us including the big ship coming through the middle of the returning fleet Bit surprised a GSP would run the battery so low an LED wouldn't work. Another string change on for today as well. I'm quite surprised how much I can actually take out of the weight up there. It's adding up to quite a lot bigger number than I 1st expected. I'm now happy I'm so anal and taken such a hard look. Now to windage. Anyone know of any NACA section masthead lights? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PaulR Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:35 am Knot Me wrote: A GPS needed in daylight during the Simrad??? Yes indeed. Not absolutely essential, but very useful; especially if you look at your track later. It saves a lot of work knowing if you are on the rhumb line or desired courses as you head from Flat Rock to Gannet Rock. We monitored our differences off our planned track and from memory we were 0.3nm left to 0.5nm right when going from Navy buoy to Thunb Point. So we were pleased we were knot writing out name all over the ocean, even whilst sailing to all minor wind changes as per tell tales. Again very useful when sailing from Rakino between Zeno Rock and the reef west of Maria Island. I to was surprised your battery ran low, but was it "tired", a bit low etc before you even started? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Knot Me Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:21 am We had a speedo, 4 eyes, lots of rum and didn't get lost. There was some discussion as to whether we would miss the Ah Ha's but as the wind was dieing at that stage we came to the conclusion that if our guesstimated eyeball position was wrong we wouldn't hit them that hard. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rising Damp Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:40 am Yeah, I don't think it was 100% when we left the dock. Piedy Battery's don't last very long as we usually kill them with our big stereos and cos we kill them so often we only buy crappy car batterys! Don't worry Knot me, We had finished, had a few rums on the dock, gone home, gone back out to a party and was back home and in bed before you were anywhere near the finish area! Go the Small boats! To be 100% honest one went very dim and the other went very very very dim rather than turn off completely. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Outboard Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:24 pm ...hey Knot Me...if things get desparate just climb up to the top of the rig and replicate this: http://steve.files.wordpress.com/2006/0 ... n-fire.jpg -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SloopJohnB Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:12 pm Outboard that is totally "un PC" "nanny state" If young kids saw that the barbers would be out of a job, not as good as the bowl cut of the 60"s -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Elly Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:07 pm Looks like Sundreamer has taken this thread to heart! Has left his nav lights running all day - maybe he wants to see if they dim down slowly, or just reach a point where they flick off with no warning. At least the port nav light on SD was shining brightly this morning... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- col j Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:33 pm that light was shining on sunday...must be trying to warm the moisture out -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PaulR Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:40 pm Must of bumped the switch. Could be the only time they may be on?? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sundreamer Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:35 pm oops thanks guys, i'll be putting the battery charger on wednesday night anyway. good old LED lights huh? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Knot Me Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:02 am Just think how much lighter you'll be now SD -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Knot Me Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:32 pm Oh yeah, step it up again time shackles.jpg -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- wheels Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:35 pm What's that KM, SST left, on the right titanium??? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SloopJohnB Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:37 pm Save weight, just use 1 shackle instead of 2. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Link to post Share on other sites
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