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Extras before non-extras or ?


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#11 Puff

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 12:16 PM

Coastal changed the order of starts to let the "slower" boats get away well before the "faster" ones. Both to give the little guys a spectacle to see and also to give them an hour extra sailing before the wind faded overnight. It's been well received.

 

In a point to point race there might not be a downwind leg so it's presumptuous to say the no-extras division will be slower.

 

And there's not a lot of difference between an extra's boat pulling up a gennaker to a no-extra's boat changing to a big floppy jib or poling out as far as boat handling goes


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#12 Jon

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 12:30 PM

Sorry, I'm just waiting for the foils for my 20t cruiser

All I'd suggest is what we do at SSANZ with the multis is consider giving the non extras a 10 min start instead of the usual 5
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#13 native

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 12:37 PM

No extras definitely should go first except when the extra division should go first, in that case the no extra division should start after the extras to save any confusion that should be made clear in the sailing instructions that extras are either first or second but not third.


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#14 harrytom

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 01:08 PM

Clearly some yacht racing has become a feelgood exercise with the main objective to get everyone back to the bar asap and all good friends etc ! Here is a new innovation for the feelgood race committees. It's a developement on Mark Foy racing. It's to be called Fark Moy racing. The fast boats go first in speed order at 1 minute intervals thus avoiding having to contest starts and slower boat passing. Once everyone has finished there should be no protests as no one has been forced to be near another boat. At the prizegiving the winners can be decided by adding an assumed handicap factor to the finish time. This can be adjusted with the wisdom of hindsight so that everyone finishes first equal. Of course the oldtimers will say this is not yacht racing but so what. No point in going out and that solves the problem of getting crew , boat and gear damage and protests about people who don't bother with the rules. It's amazing this hasn't been thought of before now. Everyone should go straight to the bar and discuss how things used to be and get an extra 2 hours at the bar ! No pun intended but its a win - win isn't it ?

Mark foy handicap is brilliant depending on the handicapper,need to declare whether extras will be used or not,having done a few rivers races on the mark foy system it comes down to sailing to you ability,in theory all should cross the line at the same time.And yes we were first away no extra and won,due to wind conditions in the river it was faster to sail with no extra,more control in tight waterways.Even racing in one fleet(extra or not)on general handicap,it comes down to conditions.under 10knots we sailed with kite straight lined,meanwhile a bigger yacht carrying a gennaker sailed more distance.Over 15 miles we finished within a few minutes of each other.Depends on the day.


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#15 Knot Me... maybe

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 01:30 PM

All I'd suggest is what we do at SSANZ with the multis is consider giving the non extras a 10 min start instead of the usual 5

That's the other option. Open the gap which would allow for a course change to give the non-extras a shorter course. Currently everything is set up for 5min starts and quite frankly I don't rate the general abilities on boats high enough to be able to cope with high speed little warning even if they know it will be happening, course changes. So pushing the gap to 10mins between starts gives the numpties time to catch up with the tower....maybe.

 

About the main argument I'm hearing about extras first non second is 'because that's what everyone does'. To me that's hardly compelling, almost the opposite actually.

 

For your foils I'd suggest speaking to Airbus to see if they have a set of redundant A380 wings, they may just be big enough.


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#16 markm

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 02:27 PM

KM, I'm guessing it's not a factor for what you're doing but when you have 50+ boats, what some dismiss as non issues, irrelevent or "if you can't cope get off the water" are actually significant issues.

Half the time tide will be against you leaving two channels down either side of the harbour, about 100m wide each.  In a westerly, you'll have some boats no kites, some kites and a few gennakers going down those channels, some doing 4kts with multis going upwards of 12kts.  Each will be sailing distinctly different angles and, except the restricted, jybing down those channels.

Can turn into a bit of a blood bath if people aren't careful, sort of like racing Stewart 34s.  Whilst it can be done, it's really not that necessary.

ArmchairAdmiral's dribbling, at club level whilst some are competitive, many are sailing for recreation, much as many golf for recreation not to be a competitor in the PGA. 

I for one say clubs should do what's reasonable to cater for both.  If you're fleets are down around the 25 or less level then all this counts for a lot less of course.


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#17 Knot Me... maybe

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 03:43 PM

Yes Mark, everything is always done with many inputs considered. The size of the fleet is one consideration, what courses you want to send them on, tidal conditions, amount of beers in the tower, how firm and perky or not.... you have with you all day and many other things.

 

It's just a couple of us looking at all aspects and seeing what we can do to switch it up or just make it different for a change. People are getting a little over the same old same old so rather than just say tough titties, as is sadly the norm in too many places these days and not only in boating, lets look at what we can to do make it more interesting.  

 

We have a few things in the pipeline that are new and not happened before which is good but that's no reason to now sit back and say 'that'll do'. So we keep looking, thinking and trying even into the smallest of corners. 


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#18 markm

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 04:36 PM

No issue with that KM, I'm just a bit cautious at times when people dismiss the status quo as being there because people don't want to try something different when in reality it's the way it is as a result of experience, typically unpleasant experiences in the past.

 

There's a lot in the phrase I think from the US navy on the lines of "every regulation has been written with the blood of someone's mistake", more often than not things are the way they are for good reason. 


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#19 Knot Me... maybe

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Posted 30 May 2017 - 04:49 PM

More how it was written than any off hand dismissal as such. But I do know what you mean and that's not happening here.

 

Just trying to get feedback/comments from the people actually doing it, which can be a lot harder than most imagine...until of course 3 beers in at the aftermath when everyone is more than happy to list everything they don't like. But I tend to ignore most of that as the owners of the flappy jaws are very rarely keen to step up or seen walking their talk.


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#20 Willow

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 08:11 PM

Done some racing in a mixed fleet with some not running spinnakers and the only problem that has occurred is the tendency of some non extras boats to want to hike you to the moon if you go to pass them under kite.

Ok with smaller boats as the wind shadow can normally be dealt with but bigger mobile shelter belts can cause headaches (actually that can be an issue with them kites of not).


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