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Is the future AWB's and Frankenboats?


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#1 Knot Me... maybe

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 03:09 PM

Just thinking as I was playing on my boat, making gudgeon's today currently being sucked, is the future going to be based around AWB's and ones like mine along with others before and currently happening where an older one is being given a hell Xmas for assorted degrees.

 

Building new in NZ is up there cost wise and the AWB's are cheap. Sure they might not last as long or be as quick as a NZ made but their price is often considerably better.

 

Ones like mine are also pretty cheap for those willing to have a crack. Sure I have, actively, ignored my time but a lot of that was playing on the boat rather than mowing lawns, paint houses and stuff like that which many would be doing instead so while same say 'but you put in $xyz of labour' they don't say the same thing when mowing lawns for example which would be how many filled their time if not fiddling with boats. Sure, if I lurked off work that's a different story. Labour aside I'm going to be in for around 50-55K but I have gone whole hog in places where many wouldn't and a reasonable amount of that sum has been sucked up by me doing RnD on bits n bobs. I do think I could have done what I have for around 30K ish. At the end I'll have pretty much a brand new boat with far more capability than she had. I have no reason to believe she would still be going strong in 30 years time.... bar maybe her owner being a dick and killing her somehow.

 

There is another similar sized one under going a conversion to foiling as well as a general up grade. Yet another being tickled to make her 'newer' in gear and systems, very much like what I've done. Plus talk of 2 others heading down the same path.

 

So I think I'm seeing a bit of a split in the road ahead, one road down the 'business as usual' path, one down a growing AWB fleet and the 3rd being the NZ enthusiast still wanting to fiddle in the back yard by either building new as we used too, just like the freshly wet Roper930 or getting an existing beast and give her the tickle from hell like I am.

 

I think as long as that 3rd road doesn't die things might not be as ugly as it looks currently look on the surface.


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#2 Fish

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 07:39 PM

Slight variation on one of the roads our talking about, I wouldn't overlook the 'loving restored kiwi classic' option.

 

Every race is won on handicap, so you don't need to turbo the f*ck out of something to win a race. Any good sailor does want a boat that is sweat to sail though.

 

Examples I'm thinking of in this bracket would be a couple of Stewart 34's fully re-furbed, the likes of some quality Townsons, and our own quality Birdsall, 30 yr old kauri log. Take a good kiwi classic, give it a proper refit, full paint job, rig, sails, wiring etc (i.e. just maintain it properly) and you've got yourself a top shelf sailing boat at a good price. Sure they aren't 'modern' twin rudder canting with carbon up the wazzoo, but they sail sweat, are strong, well built, can win races (with a good sail wardrobe and a skillful crew), and most of all, give their owners a lot of pleasure.


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#3 Rawhide

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 09:13 AM

maintenance is the key,  and maintenance includes modernization,  this year I painted the inside of the boat,  what a difference! from an old dark 80's looking boat to something that easily could have been produced this century.  Next year I will probably do wiring and electrics, year after that...

 

​End result is a good solid kiwi built boat that will always get me home, and now looks a bit newer


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#4 DrWatson

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 07:25 AM

Given that the hull and decks represent what, 10-30% the cost of a boat? One wonders, if you're going to give a boat a hell of a birthday, at what point after you've stripped the hull clean of all hardware, hoisted out the engine, and pulled off the heavy dongly thing do you sit there and look at the piles of stuff and say " well I'm 40k in, and it'll be another 50k before I'm back out the other side - I wonder how much a newer bare hull would cost and add to the overall cost?"

 

Would anyone consider at that point just commissioning (or making) a newer shaped hull n deck in carbon/glass sandwich? And going on from there? Sure it's not going to be a Ross or Y88 anymore but if you Frankenboat it up the waazoo anyway?   ... I guess in a way that's partly what the Roper930 is (rig at least), albeit in plywood, and sexy to boot.

 

How much would hull n decks for a 30 footer cost? In either glass/epoxy or carbon? Clearly a one off is going to be expensive cause you have to make the plug, then the mould, but knocking out 10, and then letting folk juice them up whatever way they wanted could be an interesting way to have a fresh look out of an old fleet. All the same hull but a free-for-all w.r.t. whatever else you think you can get away with... even bikes like the AC last round...

 

I guess at the end of the day, though, even though the hull is worth proportionately a very small amount compared to all the other stuff, it's still the essence of the boat... 


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#5 Fish

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 08:42 AM

I wouldn't underestimate the ability to stage a 'rejuvenation'. 

Staging has a massive impact on cash flow and the ability to actually use the boat, i.e. cruise in the summer, maintain / upgrade in the winter.

 

The philosophy probably comes down to your view of a 'rebuild' or 'proper maintenance'. I'm talking about, and I think Rawhide is talking about what I refer to as 'proper maintenance'. This is effectively having a 10 year program, and refurbishing, upgrading or replacing 10% of the boat a year.

i.e. sails one year, rig and rigging the next year, interior paint and upholstery next year, top sides and deck replacement (i.e. ditch the teak) next year, rudder refurb, strip back and re-paint the underwater sections next year, engine next year, wiring and house batteries next year.

 

If the general indication of boat maintenance is 10% of the boat value a year, then actually doing this plan is spot on. Of course people and situations are different. Some people have more time and less money, some people have more money and less time. Some people are impatient, or for whatever life reason just want to enjoy a fully refurbed boat now.

 

Stripping a boat to a bare hull and starting again is a major. If you were to do that, it would be wise to ask the question of just doing a new build, yes. But given the way components age and die on a boat, do you need to replace them all at the same time, or spread it out over several years.

 

Regardless of how you go about refurbishing the boat, I still think many of the classic kiwi designs offer good utility for boating, sail well, sufficient space etc. The laws of physics haven't changed over the last 30 to 50 years. Trends, wants and need have. Many of the modern boats are focusing on maximising internal volume that can be accommodated in a 12 m marina berth. This may suit many people. The corollary is that the kiwi designs are well proven in the local conditions, the cost of a new build (especially a bespoke design) is prohibitive, hence the refurb option, with the choice of 'all at once' or 'spread over time'.


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#6 Fish

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 08:45 AM

maintenance is the key,  and maintenance includes modernization,  this year I painted the inside of the boat,  what a difference! from an old dark 80's looking boat to something that easily could have been produced this century.  Next year I will probably do wiring and electrics, year after that...

 

​End result is a good solid kiwi built boat that will always get me home, and now looks a bit newer

Hay Rawhide,

What colour scheme did you go with? I've been toying with light oak veneer panelling but think good fresh white paint to go with our new neutral grey upholstery would give a tidier look. 


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#7 waikiore

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Posted 24 November 2017 - 07:57 AM

All is not lost -- a new Beale 10.5 is under construction somewhere up hillside road in plywood - think rum racer, gulf sailer with accomodation - actually a kiwi boat. Have I missed the pics of the Ropey 930 ?


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#8 Rawhide

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Posted 24 November 2017 - 09:49 AM

I went low sheen white,  used that water based 2pot that Knot me was trying and so far all good,  BUT do an undercoat,  I did the fridge with out based on the manufactures recommendation and I will be doing it again next year to get it right, 8 coats and it was still patchy

 

​when I questioned them on it they kind of went it is always best to put an undercoat on, to there credit they also then gave me a pretty good discount on the second lot of products and then I painted the main bulkhead and round the windows and it came up really good with two top costs.  Made a huge difference to the interior,  we still  have plenty of wood and will decide over xmas if we go futher and paint more of it


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#9 Black Panther

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Posted 24 November 2017 - 10:10 AM

Has it got brand name rawhide? Supplier? I have some white paint in my future.
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#10 Knot Me... maybe

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Posted 24 November 2017 - 10:36 AM

Stripping a boat to a bare hull and starting again is a major. If you were to do that, it would be wise to ask the question of just doing a new build, yes. But given the way components age and die on a boat, do you need to replace them all at the same time, or spread it out over several years.

Oh hell yes and I totally agree. In hindsite I've have asked 2 more questions at the start.

 

One being  - What exactly am I going to do? make a call at stick to it. I have found 'creep' a big issues with both integrating everything when what's being integrated has wobbled around so much.  That has slowed things a lot as well as somehtings that were done have had or be revisited due to some cunning plan (???????) that's poped up after...usualy with a connection to rum, gin or beers. The whole steering angle has wobbled that much in end game it's being a arse to sort but fingers crossed by weekends end I'll have a way to steer her.

 

The 2nd being if you plan to do a major take some time to think hard about 'Do I tweak' or 'Am I going that far I may as well whip up a new hull at the same time?'. Doing that would add cost and time but maybe worth it. In hindsite I'm OK I didn't but was very close to the point I probably should have. But my hull is fine and in prime condition so bar the shape being 30yo I will be close as launching a new boat. The deck, or the bit left, has been tweaked so much, mostly getting rid of poly bog used to pack and form shapes and replaced by carbon that is adding to the structural strength, it is effectively new.

 

 

Has it got brand name rawhide? Supplier? I have some white paint in my future.

Cotech in Henderson.

 

 

I went low sheen white,  used that water based 2pot that Knot me was trying and so far all good,  BUT do an undercoat,  I did the fridge with out based on the manufactures recommendation and I will be doing it again next year to get it right, 8 coats and it was still patchy

That's weird. I've not used a undercoat as such and found 3 coats give a hell tidy finish and excellent coverage.

1st coat was the 2 pot 2K epoxy based straight over everything as most is epoxy so epoxy sticks to epoxy best is my totally knowledgeable guess. It has stuck like to a blanket and takes bugger all to sand to a nice finish. Over that has been 2 coats of the Urethane 2 pot Low Sheen, lovely finish.

 

I did get my paint in 'Black/White' i.e White with a small hint of black, that increases it's coverage a lot, it's an old painters trick. Coverage as in colour below blocking not square metres. It looks white but if you look close it has a sort of grey hint maybe. If  put a pure white on the deck the colour probably would look a lot more grey.

 

So my boat has had the above system applied, over no fairing or bog but peel plyed, inside and out. There is a few small blemishes, mainly due to the applicator...OK entirely due to the applicator, but structurally it's magnificent so if I feel bored I can tickle it with more caution at some later stage.


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