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Choices in ground tackle.


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#1 DrWatson

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 02:29 AM

We are very rapidly approaching the time where we need to define a few of the optional extras that are to come on our boat. We may be signing the final contract as soon as December. 10.8m boat, 3600kg Disp.

 

The suggested windlass is a Quick "Prince" 800W, whatever that is, but it's available with DIN766 or ISO chain gypsy. Apparently made in Italy.

 

Along with that comes ground tackle. For the primary, the yard offer:

 

# FOB Rock 12kg anchor (French made?)

# 25m Galvanized 8mm chain

# Splice for chaine & rope jonction

# 30m Polyester rope for mooring 14mm (rupture4000Kg)

for €505.00 (excl vat)

 

That seems a pretty sharp price (?) but I know nothing about the specs or chain brand (don't think it's AQUA); this is taken from the docs I got which were roughly translated from French. The Yard seem to know their sh*t and when I've asked about some of the other things they specify they have pretty solid reasons for doing things a certain way.

Nonetheless, I think I'd like to have a bit more chain length than that. But I'm also weight conscious. AQUA4? AQUA7?

 

Questions; what would you lot do? How much chain etc?

 

Will be cruising around whole EU for a while, so not like it's only going to be shallow, or only sandy etc...

Additional stern anchor/chain, and a heavy anchor will also be carried for cruising. 

 

 


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#2 Knot Me... maybe

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 01:45 PM

All production boats like this tend to use base gear, often at the lower end of average size for the vessel. That's fine if it is a EU boat in the EU as they often boat soft but get to places like NZ and more often than not the systems are lacking. In NZ the rodes WILL be too short. Most AWB imports to NZ get extra rode length added and anchors swapped for better options during commissioning.

 

The FOB is a OK anchor, nothing flash but will work fine if your technique is 1/2 handy. It's reasonably multi-bottom in design. The BV 'Very high holding power' (VHHP) title is the same as what everyone else calls High Holding Power (HHP) which is what the Manson plough, the Delta, the CQR and a couple of others have. So the FOB performance is in line with those 'older' designs. The Sarca, Supreme, Excel and alloy Fortress all have Super High Holding Power (SHHP).

 

One or 2 newish to the market, one from a big name mob, proudly claims they have OHP, Ordinary Holding Power :D  Hows that for a nothing being spun as something flash, I still laugh every time I see that yet get a little irritated by what is effectively bullshit marketing.

 

Base anchor -  a stockless (a bit like ships use)

to get HHP the anchor has to hold twice what the stockless does.

to get SHHP the anchor has to hold 4 times what the stockless does.

To get certification that proves that costs shitloads. Manson spend a fortune on tugs and gear towing around the gulf to prove their Supreme was worthy of SHHP, as did Anchor Right and Fortress. They are not easy or cheap titles to get.

 

Anyway I know people how ill give you their 1st born before they will hand over their CQR as an example. Generally those people tend to have well balanced systems and good technique both of which can make average work damn well.

 

The 12kg sizing is OK. The old base rule was 1lb per foot which has morphed into 1kg per mt. From that you adjust depending on all the other inputs like unusual windage, displacement, extra twitchy partners, full or skinny bows, what's behind it and so on.

 

25mts of 8mm chain, yeah not too bad but you'll struggle massively here if there is only 40mts of warp behind it. In the EU that 65mts is a long rode but in NZ it's only average and on the shorter end of average. 

 

Chain is possibly Maggi AQUA4, Quick was supplying that at one stage but the last I saw in a Quick box was ex asia. Ex asia generally means G30.

8mm G30 - 3200kg bust (assuming it is what it's claims, not all is from that part of the world)

8mm G40 - 4000kg bust

8mm G70 - 7100kg bust

 

If you are on a 10.8mt yacht and it's anchoring system is seeing over 1600kg that means the wind is blowing over 62kts. That load could be higher if there is wave action. So I'd say at 2000kg horizontal load the following will likely be observed -

The rode will be peeling out as the winch clutch tries to save the winch

There is possibly smoke coming from the winch

You partner is using phrases like 'get me the f*ck off this thing NOW!!!"

There is a brown liquid flowing out from your underwear

In some cases with the less knowledgeable or prepared 'Mayday, Mayday, Mayday'

Life here right now is not a nice place to be.

 

Can you see why a chain snubber is good in bigger weather? They'll save the winch.

 

Many 8mm chains from the east will be changing shape at 2000kg, many often below that. So retrieval will have to be by Armstrong i.e. manually as the chain won't fit the winch any longer.

 

If in doubt ask for a Test Certificate. A real one tells you huge amounts. Real ones don't look like a 10yo just whipped them up in excel, they contain all sorts including the testing method and what equipment was used to test the gear on. If the Cert is signed by a Mr Pan or Mr Dang the chances are very high it's come from a stash of files in china somewhere. Those 2 gents must be so busy as almost every 'Cert' ...cough ...cough out of the east is signed by one of those 2. Suspicious much??

 

AQUA7 - No you don't need that. By the time the AQUA4 is being stressed you'll be in full 'Farrrrrrrrkkkkk' mode anyway.

 

14mm warp is the match to 8mm chain for most winches. Strength wise who knows with that lack of detail but if we assuming its the lower grade G30 out of the east to 14mm laid again out of the east, you are looking at a break load around 3000-3200kg but I'd say work on 2700kg when new, that allows industry standard strength reduction due to the splice. A good splice will be higher, a bad one could be lower but the average is reduce by 15%.

 

BUT DING DING DING WARNING WARNING if the rode is a Quick supplied one with their 'Slim Splice' the loads will be a LOT lower. That 'slim splice' is a spot of glue and a ferrule, it is not a genuine splice. We have tested a few here on 7mm to 12mm ropes and instead of the 2200-2500kg we get with real splices the best we have got is only 400kg. So if the rode comes with the 'slim splice' your 1st action is to not put it on the boat, take it to be spliced properly. They reckon they have no issue with them in the EU which tells you how soft they do boat up there, here we have fixed many.

 

Quick Winch - Nothing wrong there. The winch will be at the softer end of the range (they are cheaper) but unless you want to run all chain or use it day in day out with the occasional 'hard' like a ocean cruiser you'll be fine. Don't pick winches on motor wattage as that has been got at by marketing. 1000W what? Input, output, Chinese Watts or American Watts (they can be different) or ?????

 

I was involved in a test a year or 2 back where a winch from big winch name one was bolted to one end of a steel beam, a winch from big winch name 2 was bolted to the other. One had a 400W motor, the other a 700W motor. Both were wired to get equal maximum power and a length of chain was put between the 2, both were 7mm winches. The buttons were pushed at the same time. One winch never managed to pull even 1mm from the other before smoke started coming out of it. The winch that cleaned up the other had the smaller motor. Why? it's Gearbox, it had the best one. So Wattage is a bit of smoke and mirrors. A low wattage with a great gearbox will kick the arse of a crap gearbox bolted to a bigger wattage motor.

 

Price wise - In NZ a SHHP Aussie made Excel anchor to Maggi AQUA4 chain to the same warp spliced properly - $816 inc GST. So the 505 Euro is between 'a bit up there' and 'possibly not to shabby' depending on the gear quality being supplied. But it is interesting to see the price differences are bugger all. Note here I haven't defined quality in that price as low quality in NZ is pretty much the same price as good quality. I have lots of reasons to suspect that is the same in the EU as well.

 

What I'd do - Make the rope longer to at least 75mts, that will open up more options for low cost, low weight and no extra maintenance. I'd check it is spliced in a real manner not some 1/2 arsed manner. If you are going to be predominately cruising I'd consider maybe 40mts of chain to 60 of string, more chain is always better than less UNLESS it's all in the locker and your sailing. I would consider maybe changing the anchor but I'd probably stay with supplied to start with and see how it goes. If you are finding it a total sh*t dump it, if you find it's OK but you'd like better you have now got your secondary so stash it and go shopping for your new primary.

 

Secondary rode - I'd be around 15-20mts of chain to 50mts of rope. The rope connected to the chain by shackle, not spliced. Once it's spliced you lose a little bit of flexibility. The idea of shorter chain length is you can handle it into a dingy easier to deploy. In the EU they tend to use their secondary far far more then we do here, that maybe worth remembering.


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#3 Zozza

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 09:38 PM

Hey KM, ive got 25m chain / 45m rope soon going on a flash new RC 8-6 that I purchased off some crowd calling themsevles Chains Ropes and Anchors....so im 30m short in the rope dept?


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#4 DrWatson

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 03:55 AM

Hey KM, ive got 25m chain / 45m rope soon going on a flash new RC 8-6 that I purchased off some crowd calling themsevles Chains Ropes and Anchors....so im 30m short in the rope dept?

 bahahah, sure, everyone wants a bit more length....

 

KM, thanks for the answer, has helped a lot. 


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#5 Knot Me... maybe

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 02:32 PM

Hey KM, ive got 25m chain / 45m rope soon going on a flash new RC 8-6 that I purchased off some crowd calling themsevles Chains Ropes and Anchors....so im 30m short in the rope dept?

Dodgy sounding mob that one ;)

 

How do I put this nicely? The Doc's dangling appendage is considerably larger than yours. But no need to feel inadequate as  that is a very handy thing for you because you can slid yours into far smaller, shallower and tighter holes than the Doctor who due to his larger size does need a far bigger holes.

 

Like most things the bigger they are the bigger, or in this case longer, the associated bits for it need to be.

 

Basically Zozza, us little fellas do more with less that's why we are so much better for the planet  :D :D :D


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#6 Zozza

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 09:57 PM

Dodgy sounding mob that one ;)

 

How do I put this nicely? The Doc's dangling appendage is considerably larger than yours. But no need to feel inadequate as  that is a very handy thing for you because you can slid yours into far smaller, shallower and tighter holes than the Doctor who due to his larger size does need a far bigger holes.

 

Like most things the bigger they are the bigger, or in this case longer, the associated bits for it need to be.

 

Basically Zozza, us little fellas do more with less that's why we are so much better for the planet  :D :D :D

 

LOL....you reckon IT will let you get away with this post ...  :D


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