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#1 Saturday Night Special

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 06:11 PM

This has become a lottery having talked to one of the PHRF panel about this today  there are some very serious issues of concern .I have also talked to NZ highest qualified international measure who is now retired and someone involved in this 30 years ago with a contentious boat called Positive Touch  .

1. There is a designer on the panel. This is a straight out conflict of interest and he should be removed immediately .

2 How the boats are calculated through their PHRF is just by Guess this is a joke .How they used to be done is very simple if the medium displacement is X them boats with a higher power to weight ratio suffer a % penalty. boats that were fractional but had Mast hide kites suffered  another % penalty if the calculated average draft for a boat is x and a boat had the same ballast but the draft was another 15% deeper it suffered another % penalty  .Boats with an over length spinnaker pole greater than 100% of it mast to bow suffered another % penalty .This how it should be done.

 At present they look at the boat and guess it, for example A boat with a alloy rig no square top main and limited sail inventory will be penalized over a boat with the same draft square top main but has a heavier displacement by 500kg Code zero and plethora of sails .

 

Its Time to kick this system to the curb or start applying the system properly


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#2 ScottiE

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 06:25 PM

 

1. There is a designer on the panel. This is a straight out conflict of interest and he should be removed immediately .

 

 

Presumably you'd volunteer to be the replacement? 

 

Do you have any conflict of interest?


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#3 Saturday Night Special

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 06:26 PM

no i am a designer and i believe i would be biass


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#4 Saturday Night Special

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 06:30 PM

So you understand this This is the same with a designer on the Panel who has boats here as it was with Olin Stephens on the IOR panel trying to stop a young Bruce Farr It ended up in massive arguments between Farr and the IOR Panel in 1978


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#5 raz88

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 08:06 PM

 

2 How the boats are calculated through their PHRF is just by Guess this is a joke .How they used to be done is very simple if the medium displacement is X them boats with a higher power to weight ratio suffer a % penalty. boats that were fractional but had Mast hide kites suffered  another % penalty if the calculated average draft for a boat is x and a boat had the same ballast but the draft was another 15% deeper it suffered another % penalty  .Boats with an over length spinnaker pole greater than 100% of it mast to bow suffered another % penalty .This how it should be done.

 

Of couse, so simple. Nobody has ever complained about the various handicapping systems that work on a fixed set of rules...

 

The beauty of PHRF in NZ is there is some actual knoweldge/sense applied, rather than just a hard set of rules that people then optimise their way around anyway. I'm not aware of a perfect handicap system anywhere, and NZ's PHRF is not perfect either, and there are certainly some boats that seem to have it easier than others, but IMO it's a reasonably good compromise.


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#6 Willow

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 08:51 PM

I believe the YNZ rating is based upon the boat and crews previous performance along with an educated guess about how the boat should perform, rather than a measurement rating. If you want a measured rating look to IRC.

The only way to get an accurate rating with PHRF is to have a race history, boats new to PHRF tend to get a bit of a hammering.


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Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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#7 Fish

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 08:04 AM

I believe the YNZ rating is based upon the boat and crews previous performance along with an educated guess about how the boat should perform, rather than a measurement rating. If you want a measured rating look to IRC.
The only way to get an accurate rating with PHRF is to have a race history, boats new to PHRF tend to get a bit of a hammering.

That changed a year or so ago. Now you get a boat rating, with a very very minor adjustment for performance.

IRC in disguise
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#8 native

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 08:22 AM

My PHRF has changed over the last few years according to results, however SNS has a fair point that some boats do seem to be immune to changes even if they go really well (or poorly). If you read the blurb on YNZ's site its a performance based rating but boat measurements are based on IRC. Suppose they have to start somewhere.


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#9 Willow

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 12:13 PM

I always refer back to racetrack to compare results, I thought the measurements were just there to keep everyone honest, if you change stuff your handicap goes up. At least that has been my experience.


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Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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#10 native

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 01:08 PM

Its a challenge to equalise in any handicap system where you have boats that perform differently in the same conditions. Overall I think PHRF is a pretty reasonable for most boats but there will always be exceptions. Racetrack is good but even then there is only so much info the handicappers can put into the equation and get short term accuracy, i.e when the rockstar crew steps aboard. PHRF is overrated, I dont think it would be unfair to say its not used that much in local club racing anyway


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