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PHRF


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#21 Clipper

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 08:55 AM

So would swapping a squaretop main for a pin head reduce the base PHRF number?


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#22 markm

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 09:31 AM

Depends Clipper on change in the overall area of the main.

 

We don't penalise square tops just for being square somewhere up high.  Often a pin head is a lot closer in size to the same boats square top than people realise and we've certainly had the odd case of explaining that, at least according to the declarations, a boats pinhead is actually bigger.

 

Accepted that, accepted we have mid and upper width measurements for both sails so we can accurately determine the difference in area and if a results review isn't telling us to apply an increase for recent good results, then yes, if there's a significant area difference we'd drop the PHRF. 


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#23 Knot Me... maybe

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 11:57 AM

No direct list as the application form implies most of it and given requirement to sail to a declared configuration, if you change anything that's on the form then it needs a declaration.

Can't see the form, it's hidden in a website that doesn't explain what it does, how it stores and who it gives personal data too. Having recently experienced that organisations lack of concern for NZ privacy laws is it really a place safe enough to put any personal data into?

 

HINT HINT someone !!!!!!!!

 

Is there any plans to allow multiple configuration PHRF Certs?


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#24 Jon

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 12:02 PM

I’ve found over the years that if you get your boat off the lawn and sail it your performance improves even though your phrf doesn’t change.

Well sailed yachts never seem to complain about their handicap where as .......
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The best sailors do it two handed


#25 markm

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 12:54 PM

Doubt multiple configuration certificates will happen, handicaps with a performance component make multiple certificates a bit more complex than it would initially appear.

To make them work, you need to know what configuration a boat is racing under on any given day to record the performance data properly.  That in turn means race management needs to be able to handle multiple certificates, stuff like adding something on an entry form to cover it etc.

It's possible to do but there really needs to be a good reason to do it.

Depending on the reason there's likely other work arounds that would achieve the end without adding the complications.


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#26 Maté

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 01:48 PM

Time seems to help, if a boat races a lot then it gets easier to measure its performance. Its still not easy e.g. a boat that does well in fleet racing with 6 boats on the line can see its performance drop considerably in off wind starts with 20 plus boats on the line.


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#27 Knot Me... maybe

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 03:16 PM

Doubt multiple configuration certificates will happen, handicaps with a performance component make multiple certificates a bit more complex than it would initially appear.

To make them work, you need to know what configuration a boat is racing under on any given day to record the performance data properly.  That in turn means race management needs to be able to handle multiple certificates, stuff like adding something on an entry form to cover it etc.

It's possible to do but there really needs to be a good reason to do it.

Depending on the reason there's likely other work arounds that would achieve the end without adding the complications.

 

Just thinking that with boats and gear now having the ability to resemble Transformers, something they didn't not so long ago, they could very easily struggle with rigid PHRF. I am assuming here the skipper want to be honest. Having multiple Certs would be easy. If you sail in configuration 1 you enter as 'Boat Name', if you sail in configuration 2 then you enter as 'Boat Name C2', if you have a 3rd option then enter as 'Boat Name C3'. Open for all to see so very transparent and easy to track plus allows the boats users not to have to be cheaters in order to have a crack at the podium.

 

That system is use on Auckland harbour today and it works very well. Clean, tidy, transparent and allows for big differences that can and do exist. The biggest thing is it removes the need to cheat.

 

The comments about performance are a little irrelevant if the base number can only vary a % or 2 when boat speeds can vary more by tweaking configurations. That's is happening and can happen quite discreetly but it is cheating, do we want or need that? I'm a very solid No on that.

 

Sure taking the easy road and saying 'XYZ is it, like it or lump it' is the easy way out but as some right up there YNZ people keep saying into me a few weeks back 'It's all about the clients' and I 100% agree with them. Especially so when YNZ's client base is decreasing and some of that we know is directly due to inflexibility.

 

Who has got a PHRF form and I'll do a demo example of what I mean. That may make it easier to understand.

 

Personally I've never been a big fan of PHRF due to it's lag but it is a system out there and is being used so why can't we try and improve it to make it more relevant for more clients. Ya just never know where it may lead.


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#28 Maté

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 04:01 PM

I don't see the rationale for cheating on keelboat PHRF measurements, why bother since you'll get sprung eventually as people are not stupid. Surely boat speeds dont vary that much unless its extras/no extras, 2 handed or fully crewed, which is covered when you enter a specific event.


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#29 harrytom

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 06:19 PM

only issues with any handicap systems is when you dont win,sail to your boats/crew ability,out of the bar first first at the start gate and your on your way to win!   One should never rely on a handicap system to get desired results

 

Yes one should notify club of new sails etc that may enhance a vessels performance. .number of years ago I let a well known sailmaker/yachtsman take the helm for the race ,yes notified race control and handicap got altered and well worth the experience .No longer at the tail end .


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#30 chariot

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 08:06 PM

only issues with any handicap systems is when you dont win,sail to your boats/crew ability,out of the bar first first at the start gate and your on your way to win!   One should never rely on a handicap system to get desired results

 

Yes one should notify club of new sails etc that may enhance a vessels performance. .number of years ago I let a well known sailmaker/yachtsman take the helm for the race ,yes notified race control and handicap got altered and well worth the experience .No longer at the tail end .

Would that have been Steve Traverza. 


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