MNZ on VHF

[Fish 0]

Pyros and lectronic both have good places and both have bad places.

 

The T32 you mentioned was in the middle of no where so a pyro not being seen comes as no surprise what so ever, a EPIRP would have been the better option there.

 

The T32 had a ship passing, thats why he let off his flare. Ship didn't see it.

 

My bloody-mindedness, as you call it, comes about from a need to challenge the status quo, specifically the safety regs that are out of date. For the type of sailing I do, generally short handed, there are two or three options as a first go to that are better than flares. The safety regs don't recognise that.

1) PLB worn on my person - ideal if I go overboard, as it is on me, while flares are in a waterproof container in a locker, on the boat sailing away from me,

2) Handheld VHF, again worn on persion - I'm happy to debate which one would be your first go to.

3) Personal AIS beacon. I can get one that fits to my LJ, and automatically goes on if the LJ inflates.

 

But the regs require me to carry flares. Flares expire within 3 years. The lectronics now have 7 or 10 year battery life (the old ones have 5 years, which is 40% longer than a flare will ever be).

 

Question / another straw pole - if you could take one safety device, what would you take?

You already have an LJ on, but you can take one means of calling for help.

Lets say your boat sinks rapidly, hitting a UFO, you dive into your dinghy that you were towing (or had lashed on deck, for a CAT 3 race).

 

I'd take my PLB, cause it was already on my person, and it is very reliable in calling for help.

[Fish 0]

Where is this happening?

Like with car breakdowns, aircraft motors stopping mid flight, making smartarse comments to your missus, location is everything and has a HUGE input into your next actions.

Outer Hauraki Gulf

36deg 15.600

175 deg 11.000 to be precise

 

SW 15-20, overcast

16:30 pm, September

 

This isn't going to turn into one of those insurance quotes is it?

 

 

 

Having just sussed SAR mate and in the interest of H&S plus your dunnys ongoing life span we'll agree not to make you walk your talk....as funny as it would be to see you try.

 

I'm more than happy to keep the challenge on, if you can find an example of a flare being used to initiate a rescue (i.e. a mayday event), within the last five years.

If you can prove that, I will eat me sea boots at the re-launch of Suburban Reptile 

[Fish 0]

Your ability to not answer a question would put you in a really good position for a career as a politician.

 

Any actual details of those examples?

 

And lets say if the overcast conditions out by Horn Rk meant there weren't any pilots out that day, would you blow your chance on an orange smoke, or go for a PLB?

The case you gave, of the father and daughter who drifted from GB to Waiheke, they went for a flare and it didn't work. An EPIRB / PLB would have.

 

Its about reliability.

[Crazyhorse 47]

US sailors in disabled yacht rescued after firing flares)

Outer Hauraki Gulf

36deg 15.600

175 deg 11.000 to be precise

 

SW 15-20, overcast

16:30 pm, September

 

This isn't going to turn into one of those insurance quotes is it?

 

 

 

 

I'm more than happy to keep the challenge on, if you can find an example of a flare being used to initiate a rescue (i.e. a mayday event), within the last five years.

If you can prove that, I will eat me sea boots at the re-launch of Suburban Reptile

https://www.painswessex.com/news/2014/11/21/us-sailors-in-disabled-yacht-rescued-after-firing-flares

 

(US sailors in disabled yacht rescued after firing flares)

 

Seafood sauce for sea boots?

[Fish 0]

Absolutely classic!

So after an international search of the internet, the best example of flare use you can find is a  four and a half year old example on the website of a company that sells flares....

 

And its not the best example of seamanship...

"The men fired marine distress signals off San Diego, California, one night in November when they lost their ability to steer their 38-foot sailboat, which had no anchor. They also had no means of communication."

 

So they had no anchor and no means of communication...

 

The thing with flares is they aren't a reliable way of summonsing a rescue. Someone has to see them. Then act on it. Then all you have to do is interpret their best intentions of describing where the flare was seen. Like off Horn rk, or Flat rk, or Gannet rk, etc.

 

Flares didn't even work 50 yrs ago for Robin Knox-Johnson.

Flares were a step up on what was used back then, which was burning tar in a bucket on deck to signal distress. Things change, time moves on.

 

Did you realise there are substantial parts of the Auckland Motorway network you can't carry flares on? Kind of say something, don't you think?

[Fish 0]

Seafood sauce for sea boots?

And in the spirit of the sea boot challenge Wandering Stallion, I reckon that meets it (although it is a very poor example of flare use as a good seamanship option).

 

So, I'll eat me sea boots. Like I said earlier, I'll do it at the re-launch of Suburban Reptile. That should be a suitably auspicious event.

 

If you could find out from KM when said re-launch will be, exactly, it would be greatly appreciated 

[Island Time 1,235]

Burn the sea boots, collect the ash, sprinkle on a nice steak

[Crazyhorse 47]

I must admit...if flares become compulsory...and seersucker shirts, there is no hope of rescue!

[SloopJohnB 323]

Where do you get my photo from???????

[Crazyhorse 47]

Where do you get my photo from???????

Where do you get my photo from???????

Now that's gutsy!!

[Fish 0]

Effectiveness, all depends on the situation. if you pop off a PLB in Issy bay you are a useless waster of so many thing and at the same time possibly putting lives in more danger than they need to be. 

 

Reliability - there are reported cases of lectronic failures. In fact there have been serious enquirys into the failures. Not unlike liferafts who after all these years with all the technology available still have a very patchy record of inflating when needed. Your reliability argument is also on shaky ground, which is yet another reason you should not limit yourself so dramatically.

 

You have about 3 weeks.

I'm struggling to come up with a scenario for a life threatening situation in Izzy Bay. Heart attack maybe? just phone 111 like you would at home. Lost the dinghy? out of ice for the rum? You are right, none of those would warrant using a PLB.

 

On the reliability issues, where are these reported cases of lectronic failures you speak of? If there were serious inquiries into those failures, surely there are reports and the like available. 

The fact remains, there are many examples of flares not working. We haven't got any examples of lectronics not working, other than conjecture.

And saying lithium batteries are dangerous is hardly alarming, considering they are so wide spread. I note your references to airports and lithium batteries, not entirely relevant to marine safety.

But I can see nothing I will say will convince you, which is fine. They do say certain demographics have higher causality rates.

 

3 weeks ay? will be a moment in history.

[Steve Pope 243]

Outer Hauraki Gulf

36deg 15.600

175 deg 11.000 to be precise

 

SW 15-20, overcast

16:30 pm, September

 

This isn't going to turn into one of those insurance quotes is it?

 

 

 

I'm more than happy to keep the challenge on, if you can find an example of a flare being used to initiate a rescue (i.e. a mayday event), within the last five years.

If you can prove that, I will eat me sea boots at the re-launch of Suburban Reptile 

IT may not be in your 5 year time frame but a young fellow was rescued from the Hen (Hen and Chicks) after the tri he and his father were on was wrecked at anchor after a wind change and his father was knocked unconcious while trying to hold the tri off the rocks, young fellow tried to save his father who was drowning , to no avail, he set off flares which were spotted from Ruakaka and help was sent out. The boy was rescued, the father later buried and the tri dissapeared below in many pieces.

[Fish 0]

IT may not be in your 5 year time frame but a young fellow was rescued from the Hen (Hen and Chicks) after the tri he and his father were on was wrecked at anchor after a wind change and his father was knocked unconcious while trying to hold the tri off the rocks, young fellow tried to save his father who was drowning , to no avail, he set off flares which were spotted from Ruakaka and help was sent out. The boy was rescued, the father later buried and the tri dissapeared below in many pieces.

I remember that, it was a real tragedy. Believe they owned the diner at the top of the Bryderwynns. I don't think it ever re-opened.

Good example of the use of a flare.

[waikiore 399]

Three weeks- does this mean that KM is hoping to enter the classic regatta at Mahurangi , as long as his old classic has taken up by then...

[Fish 0]

I wasn't going too as I do believe Fish had a momentary lapse of reason rather than being a full time denier but as it is a subject of importance to us all I thought it is best to show pyros do still do the business so you'd be crazy not to give yourself the options. As lurkers, some being newbies, do read this site giving them only parts of the story (while being a main stream media speciality) may put them at more risk than they need to be so here have some balance to add to their greater knowledge.

 

Some rescues due to pyros - Sure some could have been by other methods and there does seem to be an element of defying Darwins Law in spots but at the end of the day they had pyros and used them to get get home to their families, something that may not have happened otherwise. 

 

I was hunting for the one off Perth I knew of, it is below, but must admit be being surprised to see how many others popped up so fast. I now suspect if I go deep I'll find a lot more.

 

All of the below happened inside the last 6 months.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry Mr Fish.

 

No problems KM,

I am keen to look at examples rather than suppositions, so we can start getting to facts and the like.

Examples are good.

 

I'm getting the impression that flares are good, if you've got nothing else.

It appears that a lot of either older or poorly maintained / poorly prepared boats have flares on board. This is possibly historic, in that they had them back in the day and never took them off. It may be that the skipper has never given any serious thought to how to best plan for an emergency, and therefore don't have any modern lectronics onboard. Certainly all the examples you give have an element of good luck and or poor planning in them, as you alluded to yourself.

 

As I've given great consideration as to how to deal with most reasonably expected emergencies, and the situations relevant to my type of boat and how I use it, I still believe that PLB's, VHF, and AIS are preferred over flares.

Despite my arguements on here, I still carry flares on my boat. Mainly cause I have to due to the regs.

 

For the lurkers, you always need two (different) forms of communication. Flares are a form of communication. 

Taking two forms of comms with you has been a consistent message from CG for sometime.

 

My issue has always been not with the flares, but the regs mandating me to carry them. I am (apparently) mildly intelligent (organised my way out of a wet paper bag once) and can make my own decisions. While flares have a place, they are dated technology, and there are now better alternatives. Sure, carry them if you've got them. If you want all the options available, then buy them.

 

But if you want to go for the top two options only, or have limited budget,etc, go for a good quality waterproof VHF with digital selective calling, and a personal locator beacon. Once you've got those, full your boots with what ever you want - signalling mirrors, V sheets, orange smoke flares, red hand held flares, parachute flares, tar and buckets to set on fire, morse code signalling lamps.

 

I'm not saying don't carry flares, I'm saying there are better options to ensure you have onboard - to prioritise - above flares.

 

PS, on the example bit, I've already given two recent local examples of flares specifically not working. I'm keen to work through all other known local (NZ) rescues and suss what was used and what worked. When I've got some time.

[waikiore 399]

Ah the wonderful Waitemata Woody Watchman - decorated with a nice flashing finishing light I trust.

[Island Time 1,235]

Flares are only useful if there are other people/vessels/aircraft in view. If not, they are very likely to be wasted.

Sometimes they are the right option. Sometimes other things are better.

Carry multiple options. Imo.

[ex TL systems 63]

Saw a documented case of flares saving 2 lives last night actually. Went and saw the movie aquaman which I am pretty sure is a true story. Anyway aqua man and his girlfriend used flares to scare off the monsters from the trench and a vhf radio would not have had the same effect at all.

[Black Panther 1,584]

Wow. I must go see that documentary.pretty sure I saw aquaman once after a few runs.

[armchairadmiral 411]

Never mind about the relative virtues of VHF,PLB,AIS,DSC ,Flares tea towels or what have you. Self preservation and own responsibility should kick in way ahead of those. Off Tairua yesterday and 3 jetskis blasted past on their way to the Alderman Is. Notwithstanding jetskis are the biggest blight on the seascape yet devised by man those 3 could be described as attempted suicide ! They probably did make it as I haven't heard of a search .They would have rationalised the expedition as it was calm,there were 3 of us,we had cell phone,vhf etc etc. Oh OK someone else will rescue us if our plans go awry.Should never have been out there .