Jump to content


Photo

YNZ Race Regulations Cat1-Cat5; Anomalies and concerns


  • Please log in to reply
45 replies to this topic

#11 DrWatson

DrWatson

    Advanced Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,222 posts
  • LocationLand locked

Posted 21 March 2019 - 10:03 PM

Could some/most of the contents of a liferaft be transferred to a grab bag? ie a Cat 1 grab bag rather than a Cat 1 liferaft? It would simplify and therefore reduce the servicing costs (which are rediculous) and give more affordable options for filling the grab bag with the appropriate gear for the intended use. It would also give users the opportunity to replace the food/water/batteries etc more often.

It is getting to the point where liferafts are becoming a disposable item for offshore sailing which really doesn’t fit in this age of reduce, re-use, recycle. YNZ, any thoughts on this?

 

Very good point.


  • 1

"Si Dieu n'existait pas, il faudrait l'inventer"

 


#12 Black Panther

Black Panther

    Advanced Member

  • Administrators
  • 5,659 posts

Posted 22 March 2019 - 06:18 AM

The liferaft industry is a total rort. I've heard drafts being condemned that are only 7 years old. Either the company saying that is crooked or the product is not fit for purpose.
  • 0
  Two figures sat side by side, staring at the Sea. One said to the other, “You know that one day we will die.” And the other friend replied, “But all of the other days WE WILL LIVE!”

 


#13 YNZ

YNZ

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 55 posts

Posted 22 March 2019 - 11:48 AM

Could some/most of the contents of a liferaft be transferred to a grab bag? ie a Cat 1 grab bag rather than a Cat 1 liferaft? It would simplify and therefore reduce the servicing costs (which are rediculous) and give more affordable options for filling the grab bag with the appropriate gear for the intended use. It would also give users the opportunity to replace the food/water/batteries etc more often.

It is getting to the point where liferafts are becoming a disposable item for offshore sailing which really doesn’t fit in this age of reduce, re-use, recycle. YNZ, any thoughts on this?

 

Just a heads up, I won't be giving any direct answers to requests for change - I'm not a subject matter expert on some of this stuff. What I'll do is take your feedback, constructive criticism, suggested amendments and reasoning, then put it to the group (led by Angus Willison, our Safety and Technical Officer), who will consider all the information for the new regulations. Anything that is a serious safety concern can be addressed prior to the new regulations in 2021 and an amendment issued if warranted. 

Andrew


  • 3

#14 Jon

Jon

    Advanced Member

  • Marine Forums Only
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,998 posts
  • LocationSouth of the Bombays

Posted 22 March 2019 - 12:10 PM

It’s great that your offering a direct route of feedback for the general sailor
Thanks Andrew
  • 2

The best sailors do it two handed


#15 Sabre

Sabre

    Advanced Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,127 posts

Posted 22 March 2019 - 01:28 PM

Just a heads up, I won't be giving any direct answers to requests for change - I'm not a subject matter expert on some of this stuff. What I'll do is take your feedback, constructive criticism, suggested amendments and reasoning, then put it to the group (led by Angus Willison, our Safety and Technical Officer), who will consider all the information for the new regulations. Anything that is a serious safety concern can be addressed prior to the new regulations in 2021 and an amendment issued if warranted. 

Andrew

That makes sense. Thank you for taking notice and providing this avenue
  • 0

#16 Guest_BOIGuy_*

Guest_BOIGuy_*
  • Guests

Posted 31 March 2019 - 12:05 PM

I have read through the safety regulations a number of times over the years and more so recently, I would like to make a few comments for consideration, a couple of technical considerations and a few comments on perceived ambiguity, inconsistency or lack of clear definition.

  1. cat 3 bilge pump, nowhere does it say the pump must be operable from on deck, the current inspectors check list says it does, I believe the location should be able to be above or below deck while complying with 13.14 – not really a regulation problem, more an implementation issue.

  2. Sails, I believe 15.15 is a bit inconsistent, the initial introduction says:

    “These specifications give maximum areas......It is imperative that all vessels have sufficient storm sails to work off a leeshore in severe conditions”

    It is immediately followed by

    “Skippers should consult their sailmaker and designer to arrive at the best sizes. The sizes given below are maximum suggested sizes only and should be followed only after due consultation”

    Then we proceed to a number of size recommendations ( or rules, its really not that clear) and to top it off we get 15.16:

    “A storm trysail or mainsail reefing to reduce the luff to at least 35%”

    I have recently commissioned a new Main Sail, I may wish to sail Cat 3 races in the future. I had an extensive consultation with my sail maker over the reef points I wanted. My existing sail was used on an extended windward journey in winds averaging 40 knots with gusts well over 50 and seas averaging 3 to 4 meters, with a relatively baggy main 2nd reef we still managed to make 5 – 6 knots to windward and were pleasantly surprised at the yachts performance. My new sail will have its second reef approximately 1m higher, I believe this will cope with any condition I wish to continue, or even start, sailing in at cat 3 and then some.

    It is nowhere near reducing the luff to 35%

    So whats the answer, where did 35% suddenly be deemed necessary, and can I or not consult my sailmaker and proceed with what works for my boat?

  3. Gas, 16.19 is a bit of a double up with 16.09 as the regulations dictate the locker requirements and is not correct regarding drain size (19mm) but the regs are a bit vague here too as the don’t say if this is a nominal pipe size an ID or an OD. There is a huge practical problem with the whole gas regulations as there isn’t enough gas fitters in the country to certify boats to the level required by the regulations, even if you can find a licensed fitter,when you mention boat thats the last you will see of them,maybe different in Auckland but most of them busy enough doing houses and business jobs.

  4. SR APPENDIX 7 CONSTRUCTION STANDARDS

    “A monohull yacht with the earliest of Age or Series Date before 1 January 2010 shall comply with the requirements of(a) through (e) above or with Appendix M to the World Sailing Offshore Special Regulations (available from www.sailing.org).”

    Call me stupid but I couldn’t find appendix M

There is more on my mind but this will be a start, I believe some rationalisation around liferafts and grab bags is in order, as commented already. I also have concerns over the increasing level of regulation and the implications on the costs of voyaging offshore, on land we now have the concept of reasonably practical as opposed to all practical steps, going too far starts to encourage people to circumvent rules and regulation, the discussions regarding offshore registration have an element of this indicated. I’m also concerned we are going to be hit with a whole lot of new training qualifications required and hence course fees etc. I have yet to do a course that actually made me competent, despite what the certificate said, it was experience that led to competence. Maybe like the Australians we need to distinguish between racing and cruising, a lot of those really great books of inspiring voyages of the past would not have happened nor some of our greatest sailors emerged if our current regulators had their say.

 


  • 2

#17 BOIGuy

BOIGuy

    Advanced Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 84 posts

Posted 07 August 2019 - 07:20 AM

Cna someone confirm if this forum is still an avenue to raise points with YNZ about the safety regulation?


  • 0

#18 YNZ

YNZ

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 55 posts

Posted 07 August 2019 - 08:56 AM

This forum is an avenue to raise considerations for the next edition of the regulations (2021 - 2024).

 

If you have more immediate concerns, contact Angus Willison at angus@yachtingnz.org.nz.


  • 0

#19 Rehabilitated

Rehabilitated

    Rehabilitated

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 868 posts
  • Locationon the waters Land and else where

Posted 10 August 2019 - 02:40 PM

Just a heads up, I won't be giving any direct answers to requests for change - I'm not a subject matter expert on some of this stuff. What I'll do is take your feedback, constructive criticism, suggested amendments and reasoning, then put it to the group (led by Angus Willison, our Safety and Technical Officer), who will consider all the information for the new regulations. Anything that is a serious safety concern can be addressed prior to the new regulations in 2021 and an amendment issued if warranted. 

Andrew

 

 

Can you give a Progress report re this suggestion you took been 5 months since then.

 

"Sabre, on 21 Mar 2019 - 8:58 PM, said:

 

Could some/most of the contents of a liferaft be transferred to a grab bag? ie a Cat 1 grab bag rather than a Cat 1 liferaft? It would simplify and therefore reduce the servicing costs (which are rediculous) and give more affordable options for filling the grab bag with the appropriate gear for the intended use. It would also give users the opportunity to replace the food/water/batteries etc more often.

It is getting to the point where liferafts are becoming a disposable item for offshore sailing which really doesn’t fit in this age of reduce, re-use, recycle. YNZ, any thoughts on this?"

 

Thanks.


  • 0

©  2013 2014 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019

 

RETIRED ADVANCING MULTIHULL, MONOHULL SAILOR, ORGANIZER , NAVIGATOR, PREVIOUS SKIPPER

OCEAN COASTAL WATERS COMBINED, CRUISER / RACER ADVANCING MEMBER.


#20 Freedom GBE

Freedom GBE

    Advanced Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 319 posts

Posted 11 August 2019 - 07:56 PM

Cat 3

 

Very happy that elctronic flares are now acceptable. Reduces the risk of fire in my opinion, well done. When is the next review?

 

Four kilos of fire extinguishers. We dont have an engine room, 500 grams  by the switch pannel and a few buckets in each hull is all we need.

 

Liferafts are a waste of time on our wooden catamaran.

 

Never used our echosounder. 

 

Our bilge pumps always blocks up. A bailer and bucket is much more reliable and should be an option.

 

Almanac is just clutter.


  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users