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#11 MarkMT

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 11:57 AM

No, the GBP price does not include VAT.


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#12 Puff

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 04:37 PM

Petition to keep Laser

 

https://www.change.o...WwXgTQrR3BekfVM


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"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"


#13 MarkMT

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 05:46 PM

From the petition blurb (emphasis added)...

 

The Laser is the most popular adult one design around the globe, offering the most competitive and cost-effective one-design racing to aspiring Olympians.

 

An alternative perspective, from the article I linked to earlier... https://optimist-ope...s-by-world.html

 

Regarding the Laser, although the report mentions the low longevity of the Laser sails, the cost associated with the multiple sails that must be bought by top sailors (easily 10 or more sails per season) is not factored in the analysis, and it is known that the price of the Laser sails is excessive for what they are. This helps the Laser get a high score of 4.5, while the reality is that Laser sailors spend unnecessary large amount of money on the sails, that typically are only competitive for one or two regattas. 

 
And regarding the Laser hulls, the report indirectly admits there is an issue with the longevity of the hulls, but this is not factored in the cost analysis either. Instead, the report comes with the astounding assertion, on page 5: « The hull is durable beyond its competitive life making cheap boats available to many sailors. » This is an admission not only that the boats don’t last long, but also that they loose substantial value after their competitive life, as they are then « cheap » to buy by other sailors.
 
...
 
It’s worth commenting here on the Laser. There is a well documented history of inconsistent building of the boat. This is recognized in the report, which states that « although compliant with their construction manuals and quality controls, the presented tolerances were considered by the Evaluation Panel as too high. » And to continue:  « The supply of equipment for Olympic events and other major events mitigates the poor standardization, however tighter tolerances and higher controls are deemed required. »
 
In addition, recent developments have brought to the fore that Lasers may have been voluntarily built at a higher specification in Australia. A « Defect Notice » by the laser class ILCA states that 2,280 boats produced between 2006 and 2015 are « known not to comply with the manufacturing specifications of the Laser Construction Manual. » « The defect is an additional layer of approximately 300g/m2 chopped strand mat (« CSM ») included in the hull laminate forward of the centerboard case to the bow of the boats …. the existence of which has been confirmed by visual inspection and technical analysis of a deconstructed sample PSA boat. » This information was not taken into account in the WS report, although it was public prior to its release.
 
What are the implications? It seems much easier to implement consistency in production when only one builder is involved, which is the case for the Aero and the d-Zero. When several builders are involved, there was no attempt by the evaluation team to assess the consistency between the various builders.
 
...
 
As previously indicated, it is known that the Lasers produced by the now dominant builder - Performance Sailcraft Australia - have significant variability in their mast rakes and can actually be bought with a specification of the mast rake, defying thereby the very concept of strict one design sailboat.
 

Just to be clear, I've never sailed any of the boats evaluated, so I don't have a particular barrow to push. I just think the arguments are interesting.


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#14 Island Time

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 05:51 PM

Petition to keep Laser

 

https://www.change.o...WwXgTQrR3BekfVM

I Signed it..

After reading about the selection process and the other options...


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There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worth doing, as simply messing about in boats


#15 Puff

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 06:55 PM

Regarding the Laser, although the report mentions the low longevity of the Laser sails, the cost associated with the multiple sails that must be bought by top sailors (easily 10 or more sails per season) is not factored in the analysis, and it is known that the price of the Laser sails is excessive for what they are. This helps the Laser get a high score of 4.5, while the reality is that Laser sailors spend unnecessary large amount of money on the sails, that typically are only competitive for one or two regattas. 10 sails in a season should ring alarm bells on an environmental level alone. Easily fixed by limiting sails.

 
And regarding the Laser hulls, the report indirectly admits there is an issue with the longevity of the hulls, but this is not factored in the cost analysis either. Instead, the report comes with the astounding assertion, on page 5: « The hull is durable beyond its competitive life making cheap boats available to many sailors. » This is an admission not only that the boats don’t last long, but also that they loose substantial value after their competitive life, as they are then « cheap » to buy by other sailors. We don't know how long Aeros will last nor what their eventual second hand value will be but a second hand one on trade-me is $5000 under new without details of age. I know of Lasers 50 years old still getting kids into sailing.
 
...
 
It’s worth commenting here on the Laser. There is a well documented history of inconsistent building of the boat. This is recognized in the report, which states that « although compliant with their construction manuals and quality controls, the presented tolerances were considered by the Evaluation Panel as too high. » And to continue:  « The supply of equipment for Olympic events and other major events mitigates the poor standardization, however tighter tolerances and higher controls are deemed required. » As said, not a problem at top levels as the boats are supplied by one manufacturer
 
In addition, recent developments have brought to the fore that Lasers may have been voluntarily built at a higher specification in Australia. A « Defect Notice » by the laser class ILCA states that 2,280 boats produced between 2006 and 2015 are « known not to comply with the manufacturing specifications of the Laser Construction Manual. » « The defect is an additional layer of approximately 300g/m2 chopped strand mat (« CSM ») included in the hull laminate forward of the centerboard case to the bow of the boats …. the existence of which has been confirmed by visual inspection and technical analysis of a deconstructed sample PSA boat. » This information was not taken into account in the WS report, although it was public prior to its release. The firms and their principals and everyone involved should be banned for life. It's not the boats fault
 
What are the implications? It seems much easier to implement consistency in production when only one builder is involved, which is the case for the Aero and the d-Zero. When several builders are involved, there was no attempt by the evaluation team to assess the consistency between the various builders. In 50 years time, will all 217000 Aeros and their components be made by one firm? I doubt it
 
...
 
As previously indicated, it is known that the Lasers produced by the now dominant builder - Performance Sailcraft Australia - have significant variability in their mast rakes and can actually be bought with a specification of the mast rake, defying thereby the very concept of strict one design sailboatVery easy to measure

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"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"


#16 ex Elly

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 02:54 PM

The Laser full rig has recently got a new sail design which lasts longer.  So that quote above may be a bit outdated in that respect.


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#17 waikiore

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 12:05 PM

wow looking at these prices reminds me what good value the National Solo is, watched them racing in the UK last year and thought as an Adult size boat -what a nice performer and looker.

OK we have the Zephyr for looks but for speed those Solo look great.


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