Fiji Race

[El Toro 97]

We're inching towards something silly like that Gary... maybe to Numeia and try and talk some of those frogs down to race up

[Guest]

The French have supportted every race to noumea. Young 11s are popular and there is the very good chance of a multi or 2 as well. the first entry(s) from australia have also been received.

[Guest]

18-odd crews who have organised the boats and gear, time off work and families, accommodation and airfares etc in this state of the economy - it doesn't sound too bad to me. More than I could have managed at the moment anyway.

 

 

Depends what you compare it with, I've done 4 of these races back in the late 70's, ar 60-70 boats each time, most under 40ft. Doesn't make 18 look that good.

[Fish 0]

18-odd crews who have organised the boats and gear, time off work and families, accommodation and airfares etc in this state of the economy - it doesn't sound too bad to me. More than I could have managed at the moment anyway.

 

 

Depends what you compare it with, I've done 4 of these races back in the late 70's, ar 60-70 boats each time, most under 40ft. Doesn't make 18 look that good.

 

Hay Squid,

What was the safety requirements back then?

 

And how many under 40fters do you know with CAT 1 now?

[Guest]

The old DSB radio and a raft were the big ticket items, plenty of boats under 40ft with cat one, but most of them are cruisers.

 

I really think cost is the main obstacle, with time running in second.

From memory one owner told me back then the incremental cost of doing a Noumea race was about the same as an extra year's operating cost. That's interesting as we often hear that as being 10% of the boat's value. So let's say 20k to do the race, that means not many boats under 200k would enter, about right? Put another way, 20k to do the race is way more prohibitive for a 50k boat than a 700k boat.

 

So we can say "oh well we have to comply", and watch the fleets shrink, or do something about it (but what?)

 

 

David's remedy for shrinking offshore fleets in NZ

1) toss out PHRF and start over with a measurement based PHRF (why spend all that money when the result is a lottery?)

2) Introduce a Cat 1a that will cost half what the current cat 1 does (it would be accompanied by a disclaimer signed by all those aboard), Apply the same theory to all associated costs.

3) Survey all entrants and potential entrants and find out what they want. I would support a Corinthian or Classics division for all those cool boats we had back in the 70's and 80's and 90's (Davidson, Lidgard, Senior.........) but a race; just separated from the canters and "sport boats" so they feel they have a chance, I actually think cruising divisions that allow motors are dumb and wouldn't enter them, but maybe everybody else thinks differently , let's find out (Would Fish race his Birdsall if there were similar boats to play with, or prefer a "motoring " division?)

[Fish 0]

 

3) Survey all entrants and potential entrants and find out what they want. I would support a Corinthian or Classics division for all those cool boats we had back in the 70's and 80's and 90's (Davidson, Lidgard, Senior.........) but a race; just separated from the canters and "sport boats" so they feel they have a chance, I actually think cruising divisions that allow motors are dumb and wouldn't enter them, but maybe everybody else thinks differently , let's find out (Would Fish race his Birdsall if there were similar boats to play with, or prefer a "motoring " division?)

 

Its funny you mention that Squid, was sniffing around CAT 1, but there is no point, no one to race with (and that was before I got to the costs). There is definate space for Corintian style fleets, a lot of the SSANZ boat fall into that catagory, they don't have a specific division - but I don't have to race pro 70fters, canters and pimped planning reachers in a 25yo 6T kauri boat.

 

Plenty of similar boats to play with in the SSANZ fleets, both Simrad and RNI.

Waikiwi is the only similar boat in this Fiji race, then a couple of AWB's...

 

The cruising division is a joke, I'd rather go with the Island Cruising Association rally. No spinnakers but you can motor? That is not a yacht race.

[waikiore 398]

squid agree with much of what you say however cat one is not drastically different now to that applied in the late seventies, was working with the head of inspectors back then, and still in the marine business have often wondered aloud how we might return to or encourage the big fleets of the early seventies Suva races held by Akarana.

We always seem to come up with the same answers, a man or woman for that matter has a rare employer that would allow a full month off work or more. And furthermore the modern wife seems to have a more stringent view of how long you are allowed off the leash so to speak.

Allied to this is the fact that a lot of the pioniers in Auckland and Whangarei based offshore racing were self employed and with equally keen and supportive families I fear that we will never reach those levels of participation again.

On the question of boat, we all sailed seaworthy 12m and under boats back then, and with the canters now perhaps there is a good case for a classic division for conventional 70s style kiwi boats.

I hope that I havent offended knot me with my sexist attitudes, but that is how it was back then, we have moved on and the boats cost more, cat one not that much more-- but we are all time poorer. (Except Squid, good to see you again at the airport mate)

[Guest]

Aha - you've exposed yourself now, I want photos of that lugger.

 

I know I failed a couple of maths papers as a result of one Noumea Race, c'est la vie.

[Guest]

it's already 35-40knots from the east @ 2300

[Guest mental outlook]

I'm a little confused.

 

A few of you are saying you have "no boats to race against", but your boats are clearly not 'one design' boats so you are always racing the clock. It is no different going to Fiji, there are no boats the same so they are all racing the clock.

 

It's about how good you and your crew are, and whether you can sail your 'bus' to it's handicap. Unless it is a full glamour forecast it is highly likely your in with a good chance on 6KTSB.

 

Just get out there and do it, if you all turn up the fleet will be much larger.

[Atom Ant 0]

I'm a little confused.

 

A few of you are saying you have "no boats to race against", but your boats are clearly not 'one design' boats so you are always racing the clock. It is no different going to Fiji, there are no boats the same so they are all racing the clock.

 

It's about how good you and your crew are, and whether you can sail your 'bus' to it's handicap. Unless it is a full glamour forecast it is highly likely your in with a good chance on 6KTSB.

 

Just get out there and do it, if you all turn up the fleet will be much larger.

What he said.

[Fish 0]

I'm a little confused.

 

A few of you are saying you have "no boats to race against", but your boats are clearly not 'one design' boats so you are always racing the clock. It is no different going to Fiji, there are no boats the same so they are all racing the clock.

 

It's about how good you and your crew are, and whether you can sail your 'bus' to it's handicap. Unless it is a full glamour forecast it is highly likely your in with a good chance on 6KTSB.

 

Just get out there and do it, if you all turn up the fleet will be much larger.

Looks like you're going to stay confused then.

 

Lets see if I can spell this out for you.

 

The VO 07 Camper, that you want me to race, rates 1.44, my boat rates 0.735, so they should be 96% faster, i.e. twice as fast. If we start at the same time and I take 8 days, they will take 4. They will be in different weather systems, and will be half way home when we get in, i.e. no descent piss up afterwards. The race will depend entirely on the lottery of weather patterns. The majority of this fleet are modern boats, typically of long waterline length or extreme reaching designs. The only way I could beat any of them on handicap (the clock as you put it) is to hope for a very slow sub hull speed race, preferably going to windward. Not going to happen.

 

Even with a good handicap system you can't fairly handicap significantly different boats. The result comes down to the weather that suits a particular boat, there is no racing ability or competitive aspect in that.

 

Unless your idea of sport is buying lotto tickets

[markm 30]

Don't agree tentacled tyrant :

 

1. Notwithstanding whether PHRF in it's current form is or is not a lottery, all ocean racing is a lottery no matter what handicap you use. Racing similar style boats works okay but say a F1020 vs. a Ross 40, all going to come down to which design the weather patterns favour. That said, higher performing boats get a distinct advantage because their speed better allows them to exploit the weather modeling information and computer aided routing available today.

 

2. They already sign disclaimers, Don't see what another one will do but I understand how you love to create even more paperwork. That said, to point out the rather obvious, when a boat goes missing it isn't the boat complaining, perhaps you need to get disclaimers from the family and friends (and media). Also struggling to see how you can get a cat 1 with a liferaft, med kit and communications appropriate for offshore that is half the current cost, ie, cat 1 to the standard of this much vaunted 70s racing.

 

3. Cool boats? Sorry, I've helmed and sailed IOR style as well as modern boats and those in between. Each to their own of course but I did kind of think your view on the IOR generation boats was a little 'romantic'.

 

Seems to me though Tentacled one that the solution is in your own hands, well their own hands as you did mention you were a disinterested observer.

 

What is there to stop, say the Weiti Boating Club who I think I mentioned before do seem to have an abundance of those who like to talk the talk, to front up with a "Weiti International" with safety regs tailored to small boats and an entry criteria of say, designed prior to 1990 and/or under 42ft.

 

I don't think Corinthian divisions do it, only way to go is to have your own race which neatly eliminates all the wining about "I didn't enter because I was going to get beaten by a VO70 rubbish".

 

For that matter the competitors can collectively set up their own yacht club to run it, take on the responsibility and potential liability that goes with it and which they seem so happy to criticise others for not taking on. What's the worst that can happen, get ex-communicated by YNZ which will surely take longer to happen than doing the race, race over and who cares what happens after that.

 

Struggling to see a flaw in this solution but for some odd reason I don't think it's going to happen, possibly my cynical attitude towards human nature and a view that people are happier complaining about why they can't do something than they are getting their hands dirty and actually doing what they say they want to do.

[Changed 10]

Why not a Mark Foy type start. That way everyone would at least arrive at a similar time. The slower boats focus is those hunting from behind and the faster boats have something to hunt.

[Guest mental outlook]

Couldn't agree more Mark.

 

Camper being there is a one-off so that is a feeble example.

 

If more turned up there would be different divisions, you may even get your own 6KTSB and below division that you can feel 'comfortable' in!

[Battleship 100]

The problem with teh slower boats starting earlier is that it is no less of a lottery witht the weather. Remember the whining about the white island race?

I think the crux of it is (for me anyway) is that it is a huge commitment for just one race where the party will be well over by the time we got there.

Compared that to the RNI race where you have multiple legs and chances to do well (or not as the case may be), the requirements are slightly less and you are home (or almost for us) at the end.

[markm 30]

Jeez, aren't you right about the getting home bit Willow. Whilst I not at all sure I'd be into putting the effort into doing a Fiji race which seems a crime given we've got boat quite well suited for it, the killer would have to be getting home again.

[Guest mental outlook]

Ship.

[Guest]

Don't agree tentacled tyrant :

 

Oh no - I've enraged the Data Lord

 

1. Notwithstanding whether PHRF in it's current form is or is not a lottery, all ocean racing is a lottery no matter what handicap you use. Racing similar style boats works okay but say a F1020 vs. a Ross 40, all going to come down to which design the weather patterns favour. That said, higher performing boats get a distinct advantage because their speed better allows them to exploit the weather modeling information and computer aided routing available today.

 

You are right , long ocean races are more of a lottery than a 30 min w/l. I was just taking another opportunity to say what I think should happen with PHRF, That said, I'd prefer a measurement based lottery to a performance based lottery.

 

2. They already sign disclaimers, Don't see what another one will do but I understand how you love to create even more paperwork. That said, to point out the rather obvious, when a boat goes missing it isn't the boat complaining, perhaps you need to get disclaimers from the family and friends (and media). Also struggling to see how you can get a cat 1 with a liferaft, med kit and communications appropriate for offshore that is half the current cost, ie, cat 1 to the standard of this much vaunted 70s racing.

 

I've done it with the med kit, excluded two items and used generic cheaper alternatives elsewhere ($700 from scratch), Allow the use of Sat phones, if not already allowed and the other big one is a raft, might get away with hiring one, then work through the rest of the schedule with e same approach (i.e. can we cut the cost of this?) and see where you end up, You are right, forget the paperwork.

 

3. Cool boats? Sorry, I've helmed and sailed IOR style as well as modern boats and those in between. Each to their own of course but I did kind of think your view on the IOR generation boats was a little 'romantic'.

 

 

I never mentioned IOR, but we designed and built some very nice boats in that period, well capable of going to Fiji, but most are no longer raced and seldom go offshore, perhaps part of a wider question, why aren''t these guys racing at all?

 

Seems to me though Tentacled one that the solution is in your own hands, well their own hands as you did mention you were a disinterested observer.

 

Correct, I decided long ago that any moored size boat I own will be for cruising, racing is on other people's boats.

 

What is there to stop, say the Weiti Boating Club who I think I mentioned before do seem to have an abundance of those who like to talk the talk, to front up with a "Weiti International" with safety regs tailored to small boats and an entry criteria of say, designed prior to 1990 and/or under 42ft.

Good idea, I like it. I wonder how you would survey the level of interest?

I really like the Jester Challenge also, but we are not responsible enough to be allowed something like that.

 

I don't think Corinthian divisions do it, only way to go is to have your own race which neatly eliminates all the wining about "I didn't enter because I was going to get beaten by a VO70 rubbish".

 

For that matter the competitors can collectively set up their own yacht club to run it, take on the responsibility and potential liability that goes with it and which they seem so happy to criticise others for not taking on. What's the worst that can happen, get ex-communicated by YNZ which will surely take longer to happen than doing the race, race over and who cares what happens after that.

 

Struggling to see a flaw in this solution but for some odd reason I don't think it's going to happen, possibly my cynical attitude towards human nature and a view that people are happier complaining about why they can't do something than they are getting their hands dirty and actually doing what they say they want to do.

[Guest]

I hope that I havent offended knot me with my sexist attitudes,

Knot in the slightest. I was just explain to Mother just last evening that back in the day (her day) that's the way it worked. Knot so much these days though and I suspect that with the impending arrive of the Age of the Goddess that in 50 years time it'll be just like it was 50 years ago except she'll be calling the shots knot him.

 

And a great post I think sums it up exceptionally well.

 

On the lack of smaller boats I'd say a huge amount is cost and time off for almost all. For me it's more just a lack of similar (note 'similar' knot 'same') boats to play against. Sure we might never see them once deep out there but at least we would know they are somewhere close to our latitude and in knowing that makes it a lot more interesting than knowing the fleet has been in 2 days and we still have 2 days to go.

 

Sure say just go do it and race a clock but why do that when you can do the exact same thing just cruising and without the extra cost and dramas that come with doing in inside a yacht race.

 

What is there to stop, say the Weiti Boating Club who I think I mentioned before do seem to have an abundance of those who like to talk the talk, to front up with a "Weiti International" with safety regs tailored to small boats and an entry criteria of say, designed prior to 1990 and/or under 42ft.

Wouldn't work, the powers that be would squash it as it's knot in their interest to allow any break-away group a chance to get a foothold. If one club/group managed to break thru the wall it could easily start an avalanche and some others them may suddenly find themselves even more irrelevant.

 

 

Anyway it looks as if the cruisers will miss the real nasty weather and are ticking along nicely. Go the Mair lads.