Cheating

[Guest]

I heard some stories very recently about people cheating in yacht races. Bad enough to be really disturbing

I've only ever once been on a boat where the owner/skipper cheated. I got off and never returned, as did nearly all the rest of the crew. I think if it was today (it was nearly 30 years ago) I'd also tell the RC and post it here.

Our sport is self governing, if we start cheating we might as well all take up tiddlywinks - what's the point.

 

 

So my question is - how widespread is cheating in NZ sailing? Have you ever witnessed it? DId you do anything about it? Is it as common as this particular informant would have me believe?

 

And I'm not talking about miscalculations on the number of penalty turns, I'm talking sh*t like "battery charging". Every one is allowed a mistake or two and these can be sorted at the bar or even in the protest room. No - the stories I heard were about blatant disgusting cheating- people I wouldn't want to race with or against.

[Guest]

Gladly I can say I have never witnessed it and I would hope it stays that way, any skipper that puts his crew in a position that they need to go to RC against the boat they sail on, is not worthy of being a yachtie

[Clipper 343]

Does sailing with an underweight boat count?

There are many many stories I could recount on that one (dinghy sailing). Have heard rumours about multis too. I mean weighng in correctly, and then removing weights to race with a lighter boat.

[MrWolf 0]

I sailed a Balokovic Cup one year and we were becalmed on the leg from Flat Rock to Cow and Calf, visibility was pretty shocking.

 

A very prominent yachties boat came quite close to us, motor running, exhaust water coming out the back, doing 6 knots where as we were doing zero.

 

we finished the race, next day saw the results.......

 

Holy crap, they had finished.

 

We (along with 2 other boats who witnessed it put in protests).

 

The guy initially denied it, had crew swear they never motored (they clearly had not seen us !)...

 

I can't look that guy in the eye ever again.

He didn't sail as much for quite a while after that.

 

The only explanation we ever got was that they had decided to retire, then soon after they motored for a while they were in a steady breeze so they cut the motor and kept racing !

[Clipper 343]

I sailed a Balokovic Cup one year and we were becalmed on the leg from Flat Rock to Cow and Calf, visibility was pretty shocking.

 

A very prominent yachties boat came quite close to us, motor running, exhaust water coming out the back, doing 6 knots where as we were doing zero.

 

we finished the race, next day saw the results.......

 

Holy crap, they had finished.

 

We (along with 2 other boats who witnessed it put in protests).

 

The guy initially denied it, had crew swear they never motored (they clearly had not seen us !)...

 

I can't look that guy in the eye ever again.

He didn't sail as much for quite a while after that.

 

The only explanation we ever got was that they had decided to retire, then soon after they motored for a while they were in a steady breeze so they cut the motor and kept racing !

 

If proveable, that sort of behaviour should result in a lifetime ban. We don't need people like that on the racetrack.

[Guest]

The crew once started the motor for battery charging on the west coast and had it running for 2 minutes before I realised it was in gear. I was so embarrassed I stuck it in reverse for another 2 minutes. We ended up beating another boat by a few boat lengths coming into Wellington so if I hadn't tried to correct the mistake I would have felt as though we'd cheated and would have had no choice but to dsq ourselves. It still haunts me that we might have gained an advantage but I did discuss it with the skipper of the other boat and he was cool about it. One design racing is riddled with dodgy stuff but surely motoring has to be the most contemptible.

[Guest]

of course sailing with an underweight boat counts, why on earth should it not?

 

I have no problem people pushing the letter of the law to the limit, but thankfully have rarely seen such 'cheating'.

 

Interestingly I was once on the receiving end of a stern word from a very well respected International Judge, for my use of the word 'cheat'.

 

We had been soundly beaten by a boat in the same class (M24), he just consistently had an upwind advantage for the whole weekend. On way to prizegiving (long after time limit for protests) we took our dinghy past the winning boat's mooring, really just to have a looksee at how the boat was set up. We brought the dinghy alongside, grabbing hold of the lifelines as we did. They had bungy cord hidden inside (very clever system) which would have given the boat a huge, and illegal, advantage. These are lightweight 24ft keelboats, a few inches on the lifeline makes a big difference, his lifelines stretched below the gun'll, but it was too late to protest.

 

We made a few noises at prizegiving, including to one of the judges (really looking for advice because of the lack of action we could take). i think my actual phrase was ' despite the rules, he's just a downright cheat' The offender eventually had a rule69 protest brought against him, but did not forfeit the regatta. But we were also warned of not labelling someone a 'cheat' until they had been found to be so.

 

anyway, it has no place in the sport, I'm pretty shocked to hear that Balocovich story.

[Guest Rocket]

We came around the cow and calf in the 1/4 ton worlds - French boat just in front of us had two crew pop out on halyards (using harnesses). They sailed off into the sunrise.... Tried to protest but were advised not to as "we couldn't prove it".

 

I note at that same regatta no measurements were taken on Bullit. Imagine a Kiwi boat going to France and not being measured. (Have no idea whether they rated or not - but they were so much faster it was ridiculous).

 

We all know who pushes the rules in dinghys - rocking etc even in club races. Have had to have a word or two from time to time - and threaten protest. I note the international on the water juries deal to this issue really well - same guys get black flagged multiple times when they go to the Worlds... But that (rocking) is often a marginal call - you have to find the line and teh only way is to have the top jury guys here checking your technique - so the system is working in dinghys.

 

Apart from the above I am pretty happy that blatant stuff is well controlled - I would not sail again on that boat if someone cheated - knowingly!

[ScottiE 174]

of course sailing with an underweight boat counts, why on earth should it not?

 

Station - what about stacking sails on the windward rail, tacking and restacking. Some seem to think that's not cheating . . .

[smithy09 50]

It starts real young, in Optis. Go out on the water and watch the kids. Some good, front of the fleet kids get caught down the back and feel that because they are in the "wrong place" they can do what they want at mark roundings and any other area they can get away with.

It is up to Mum and Dad to put them right.

 

Son #1 is told "always do your turns" if you are in the wrong and he pretty much does. Has had some harsh calls go against him by kids who just won't do turns, even with Port-Starboards.

 

Best one I saw was a young up and coming Opti sailor who I'm sure will be the next Coutts/Barker. He was sailing at the Bic series at the viaduct and was in the top 5, down to about the last couple of races. Coming up from the top mark he was on port and clearing a starboard tacker when at the last minute he got headed and the starboard tacker had to dip him, but by bugger all, but a dip nevertheless. Stbd tacker protested (no collision) and kid immediately did a 720. Cost him around 5 places and ultimately the regatta. (He finished second). But I tell ya what, honest?? Awesome display of sportsmanship.

[Bogan 8]

of course sailing with an underweight boat counts, why on earth should it not?

 

Station - what about stacking sails on the windward rail, tacking and restacking. Some seem to think that's not cheating . . .

 

Is that cheating?

 

Some stuff in your boat has to be secure, but what can and can't be legally moved? Food, sails, ropes, bags and gear, drinking water, anchors and warps?

 

I'm interested, so if anyone knows the answer, please post.

[Murky 1]

Anchors and warps are specified to a certain extent in the safety regs:

At least one anchor must be complete with tackle and ready for immediate use at all times.

Anchors and any chain shall be securely fastened in position when not in use. Where anchors are stowed in wells opening to the deck, they shall be lashed in place or the lid of the well shall be fitted with a positive action catch.

KM has had some discussions on this and I think the conclusion was that only the anchor well or a cockpit locker makes the grade for the primary anchor, chain and warp.

[Guest]

I"ve been on the start line a few times had had larger boats just refuse to give way.....Not necessaries cheating...but Unsportsmanlike like....

 

That issue is probably more rife than actually cheating?

ie not doing penalties etc when clearly in the wrong....knowing full well that chances of the protest being pushed at the end of a "friendly" race are pretty slim.

[peggs 0]

I recall a boat in Wellington motoring the length of the start line roughly 1min pre start... there was virtually no wind, and the other end gave the boat a considerable advantage.

[Guest]

of course sailing with an underweight boat counts, why on earth should it not?

 

Station - what about stacking sails on the windward rail, tacking and restacking. Some seem to think that's not cheating . . .

 

Is that cheating?

 

Some stuff in your boat has to be secure, but what can and can't be legally moved? Food, sails, ropes, bags and gear, drinking water, anchors and warps?

 

I'm interested, so if anyone knows the answer, please post.

 

I'm interested too (for the same reason as bogan I suspect)...have seen extremes with this in the 1020's and other yachts...

 

We are unsure how far to push it, especially short handed..

 

From what I can see RRS51 says you can't move "ballast" or "dead weight" to adjust trim......but the definitions section of the rules fail to define "ballast" or "dead weight"....

 

What is in and what is out??

 

Anchors, warps, safety gear, sails, food, ropes, gear bags, and anything else...are these "ballast", "dead weight", or something else all together..?

 

Any experts out there?

 

And does it make a difference if these are just shifted around downstairs (and therefore arguably still properly "stowed") rather than stacking up on deck...?

 

Imagine this scenario; you are downstairs getting some kip on a long beat to windward, middle of the night, you change berths when the boat tacks every hour or so to position yourself on the windward side as the boat you are on is sensitive to crew weight, you take your 20kg gear bag with you when you move. Has the boat now infringed RRS51 and therefore open to DSQ???

[Guest]

What about being able to pump the drinking water from side to side? Probably better off to carry the minimum required I guess.

Who always carries the minimum required fuel?

[Guest Rocket]

Depends on teh breeze Slacko - Mumm36s are faster upwind with the tanks full. Most boats benefit from more weight when it is forward of the beam so don't rush to empty them out if it on the nose...

[MrWolf 0]

Most boats benefit from more weight when it is forward of the beam ...

 

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

 

uffa fox said the only place to put weight was in a steam roller !

[Guest]

I guess when it is windy the weight downwind isn't going to penalise speed as much.

But can you pump it side to side? Or allow it to drain just before tacking?

[Guest]

From what I can see RRS51 says you can't move "ballast" or "dead weight" to adjust trim......but the definitions section of the rules fail to define "ballast" or "dead weight"....

 

What is in and what is out??

 

"ballast", "dead weight", is defined as any object moveable or otherwise that has the sole purpose of providing stability to the vessel.