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Reefing - cockpit reefing v. boom/deck reefing - old thread


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yzlian

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:43 pm Post subject: cockpit reefing v. boom/deck reefing

 

As singlehander I often wish reefing could all be done in the cockpit. (Mine has slab reefing, and I have to first go to the mast and hook the cunningham to the reef cringle - pull down the main a bit if necessary - then tie the three or four pairs of reefing pennants, pull and tug the reefing lines neatly onto the boom, then go back to the cockpit and put on the earring, then tighten the main halyard).

 

Short of a furling main, is there a design in which one really doesn't have to leave the cockpit to reef? What about the cunningham? what about the pennants?

 

For the lazyjacks, I deploy them only if I think having to reef is a distinct possibility; if weather is kind, I only deploy them when nearing my destination.

 

Joseph

 

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Willow

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:40 am

 

Have a look at this, http://www.harken.com/pdf/4171.pdf single line reefing it may be an answer to your problem.

I haven't tried it myself as my controls aren't run back to the cockpit.

Would be good for the first reef anyway.

 

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dana-tenacity

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:37 am

 

I had single line on one of our US boats. Limits the depth of the reef by the length of your boom, could be a problem. Wasn't really happy with lots of stuff inside the boom that I couldn't see or get access to.

 

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Willow

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:28 am

 

Have a look at the pdf, it's all run outside of the boom with an adjustable track on the end , can't see to many problems provided you use low friction pulleys, and/or have a free winch.

 

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pwederell

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:32 am

 

We have same system on Nightcap for 1st & 2nd reef but as DT noted it is inside the boom and even if I remove the exit boxes I can't take the small blocks out. If it does clap out though I can still use the outhaul winch for the reef outhaul at a pinch. Wouldn't like to try it on a loose footed main though.

 

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PaulR

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: cockpit reefing v. boom/deck reefing

 

yzlian wrote: Short of a furling main, is there a design in which one really doesn't have to leave the cockpit to reef? What about the cunningham? what about the pennants?

 

 

There are systems to allow for single line reefing.

I saw one (a few years ago) on a Beneteau "French Connection".

 

From memory, there was a special block sewn onto the mainsail luff at the reef cringle position.

 

The slab reefing line started at the clew end of the boom, up through the leech reef cringle, back down to the boom sheeve, along the boom, through a block on the boom, then up to the luff cringle block, then down the mast to the turning blocks (same as halyards etc) then aft to a rope clutch and winch on cabin roof/cockpit.

 

It seemed to work well and was quick and easy. However, from memory, it did not get the leech cringle tight enough, as most of the effort was concentrated on the luff block cringle.

 

I would like to re-visit the system before being too critical. I think the luff block came down to the boom and then the luff block stopped working as the reefing line was now effectively just straight along the boom.

In essence it worked well and was easy.

 

By contrast, I was discussing this same issue in a yacht club bar (as you do!!) and another system was suggested. I like it because it is easy to rig to any yacht's slab reefing sails.

 

It is entirely external to the boom; so easy to adjust or fix.

 

The leech slab reefing line started at the clew end of the boom, up through the leech reef cringle, back down to the boom sheeve ending with a block. (When fully hoisted, the block is (just) slack under the sheeve on the outer end of the boom.)

 

Another reefing line, is the Luff Reefing line. This goes from the clew (hooks/shackle) up through the luff cringle block, then down the mast to the turning blocks on the boom, out along the boom through the block (at the end of the leech line above) back along the boom to another turning block, the down the mast though another turning block (same as halyards etc) then aft to a rope clutch and winch on cabin roof/cockpit.

 

When this reefing line is pulled, the luff cringle is pulled down, then the block is pulled along the boom tightening the leech cringle at the same time.

 

Therefore you can adjust the length of the leech line so the block travels to the mast, BEFORE the main reefing load comes on the luff cringle. Effectively the luff cringle is now a tensioning cunningham!!

 

One initial limitation is that the length of the boom is twice the length of the leech cringle length.

 

I suppose you could try extra pulleys/tackles on the boom to alter lengths, ratios and power loads etc.

 

Having two reefing lines working together means you STILL only need to pull one line.

 

Also you could tie two blocks at the mast / gooseneck and try this first without having to drill holes and mount blocks on the boom or get special blocks sewn onto the sails. You most probably have all the bits already!!

 

Hope this helps, and is not too confusing.

Would like to know how successful it is.

It would of been useful in todays gale 2 handed race.

 

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dana-tenacity

Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:50 am

 

The second method you describe is the way to do it, allows sufficient tension on the leech. But you are limited to a reef no deeper than half the length of your boom.

I would rather stick to standard slab reefing, if you really don't want to leave the cockpit, bring 3 lines back along the coachroof.

 

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PaulR

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:37 pm

 

Correction to original Message. Cannot edit as in new section, so re-read original and

"...the Luff Reefing line. This goes from the clew (hooks/shackle) up ..." should read

"...the Luff Reefing line. This goes from the "TACK" (hooks/shackle) up ..."

 

Sorry but I made an EBCAC type mistake.

 

 

 

EBCAC?? you ask?? => Error Between Chair And Computer!!

 

 

 

DT: This works for normal slab reefing all the time, and operates from the cockpit.

 

All you do is:

1). Lower the main (to a previously marked point on the halyard)

2). Pull in on the single reef line that

a). Firstly pulls the luff down when halyard eased and as more tension is applied,

B). Pulls the leech reef line "floating" block from the clew end of the boom to the tack

c). When the block comes into the vertical line with the luff reefing line, then any extra tension is solely applied as a luff cunningham.

 

I do not bother with pairs of reefing lines traditionally tied from the reef points (diamonds though some reinforcing patches are round these days) around the boom with a "reef" knot, especially for the 1st and 2nd reef. It's a waste of time and effort.

 

I find that with sufficient tension on the leech reef cringle, the sail is kept flat and close to the boom.

(Also when dropping the main, taking up on reef lines helps a lot, even with lazy jacks.)

 

For a 3rd 4th or very deep reef, then the wind would be much higher, and water can / will also hit the boom. Then a simple line "from the tack" out through the leech reef cringle then back under the FOOT (not the boom); up through a reef point (diamond) and down under the FOOT again etc. until you return to the tack is sufficient. This leaves both ends tied at the mast for easy release, or even led back to the cockpit.

I use "highwayman's" hitches or round turn with a slip hitch as they can both be released under load, unlike a bowline. This is especially necessary should the reef line break or be released accidentally and can stop ripping the mainsail.

 

For the 3rd, 4th reefs, I recommend wrapping another line through the reef cringle around the boom a couple of times for safety sake. Just consider the 4:1 to 8:1 loading from the main sheet going onto the single thinner(?) reefing line through the cringle!

 

If you have a long outhaul, fitted with "Halyard" Shackle (or 2nd choice a snap shackle) you can easily attach the outhaul to the reef cringle and have the full power of your existing outhaul tackle and spread the clew load as well. I prefer a "Halyard" shackle with its positive lock and they are not as heavy! Therefore if your outhaul has any extra power for a full main, this same control and power is now available to your smaller reefed main.

 

After all, why loose your "normal" sail controls (Cunningham, Outhaul) on your main just because you have decided a smaller size is required??? They build mains for boats bigger and smaller than yours with these controls don't they??

 

 

Re DT's comment: "...you are limited to a reef no deeper than half the length of your boom."

================

In my original message I stated: "try extra pulleys/tackles on the boom to alter lengths, ratios and power loads etc." I must admit I have not tried putting two blocks (back-to-back) on the leech reefing line and then securing the end to the outer (clew) end of the boom. This would make a 1:1 depth where the length of the boom is equal to the depth of the reef.

 

Perhaps I need to make some drawings if that will help lessen any confusion. Send Rum!!

 

Some other points:

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For a third (or more) reef, cheapest way is to simply re-use the first reef line.

Alternatively have an extra set of reefing lines and blocks. Then just shackle on extra blocks to the boom, and thread lines through cringles and your ready to reef again. You should buy the more expensive snatch blocks with two swivels BEFORE the snap shackle (e.g. Ronstan Trunnion RF6711 or RF6721). They will sit under load along the boom better.

(Just let the extra costs be your assistance to the marine industry!!)

 

It would be worth considering making the FIRST leech reefing line long enough to be roved through the 3rd reef when the main is full set, then when tied off at the first reef, any excess could be taken up along the boom. Now the First reef and THIRD reefs can share the same reefing line. Also make the 2nd line long enough for the 4th reefs. This may be

suitable for solo Ocean Racing where you may need to jump straight from a full main to a deep reef, especially if you've been sleeping and the wind increases rapidly after keeping watch all night??? (see other threads)

 

I prefer to have thin messenger loops (with a tail) from 2nd reef to 3rd reef cringle etc for more reefs. Less Drag!

 

Also normally only fit for offshore.

 

For the 3rd reef, then just release the FIRST reefing line as the entire load is now on the 2nd reef.

Untie the leech bowline from around the boom, unthread the 1st leech reef cringle, thread through the 3rd leech cringle and tie around the boom again. Visit the mast and re-rove the luff line and all is ready for the next reef.

 

I have wondered about weaving some thin shock (bungy) cord through the points and cringles at the 3rd reef. Then it would be VERY easy to Pull the leeward shock cord loops DOWN, under the BOOM, and up to some flat plastic clips (e.g. Ronstan PNP84) on the boom. Then the flapping reefed sail would be quickly doused.

 

For solo & tired short handed crews, it may be easier to simply drop the main, then put in the deep reef whilst the boom

 

& sails are on the cabin roof, then just re-hoist the now deep reefed main. This would save a lot of risks and balancing acts in a wild dark night and reduce the dangers from flapping sails & moving booms but it is a lot slower and more time and energy consuming. Also the boat slows down and is knocked about by the waves more and goes off course.

 

Check that the luff slides / slugs can remain in the track when the reefs are set. Using some thin line (4mm) looped through the slides to the luff points that tightens when the main is fully hoisted but slackens when a reef is made, saves having to let the slides out of the track on the mast, and ending up with a loose flogging sail.

 

If you have a main with 4 or 6 reefs, you will become an expert quickly!!

 

Practice in the light. You should be able to reef in 15 to 25 seconds. 45 seconds is far to long. Minutes means you need lots more practice!!

 

 

Years ago when racing Admirals Cup in the UK, we used to put in a reef or shake out a reef at each tack because of the wind / wave / sea patterns. At the same time we also changed the headsail for a different cut e.g. from Radial cut to a Flat panel cut. We had 2 of each headsails with different cuts (Hoods or Banks). With twin grooved headfoil, twin halyards & trained crew it was easy and efficient and we gained ground over the competition. Often we only had one sheet on each headsail. So we had two light genoas, two number 1 genoas, two number 2 genoas, two number 3 genoas plus 4,5,& 6 jibs, reacher and ghoster headsails; not to mention the 2 staysails, big boys, tall boys and then the 4 spinnakers.

 

PS I don't sell Ronstan but have their catalogue book handy.

 

Good Luck and get your times down!!

 

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PaulR

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:54 pm

 

SINGLE LINE REEFING:

 

The picture is at:

 

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s167 ... ng01-1.jpg

 

Sorry but I'm no artist but I hope you get the ideas.

 

DT: Did alternative for you to show 1:1 rope length but this results in a drop of the power ratio when the leech cringle is being reefed in.

 

Alternatively, extra purchases on the LUFF reefing line along the boom would increase power but also double the amount of rope in the cockpit tangle!

 

So: Just use the winch! for power.

Mind you, as a jury rig, this works well!!

 

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island time

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:55 pm

 

Hi guys, I've done this on Island Time (farr 42). Had blocks sewn to sail when I replaced the main. Just rethreading the slab system works fine for me. Slower than slab - with a crew! but good by myself. Tensions have not been a prob, as the luff block moves down to boom entry point, then tensions leech block. If you want more luff tension, go back to halyard. I've added an extra, external to boom line used as the first reef, as there was only 2 internal.

 

I very rarely need to go on deck now for sail handling, other than to put the sail cover on!

 

Cheers

Matt

 

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Tim C

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:24 am

 

I've got single line reefing on three of my cats. The reef lines start at the tack, then go up and down to the clew reef, then forward through a clutch, then back to the deck winch. Have the halyard marked, drop it to that, and pull in the reef line. The point of the system is the load is taken on the boom, not the gooseneck. Works well. You always need lazy jacks!

Tim C

yzlian wrote: As singlehander I often wish reefing could all be done in the cockpit. (Mine has slab reefing, and I have to first go to the mast and hook the cunningham to the reef cringle - pull down the main a bit if necessary - then tie the three or four pairs of reefing pennants, pull and tug the reefing lines neatly onto the boom, then go back to the cockpit and put on the earring, then tighten the main halyard).

 

Short of a furling main, is there a design in which one really doesn't have to leave the cockpit to reef? What about the cunningham? what about the pennants?

 

For the lazyjacks, I deploy them only if I think having to reef is a distinct possibility; if weather is kind, I only deploy them when nearing my destination.

 

Joseph

 

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shanson

Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 8:21 pm

 

I LOVE the idea of shock cord between the internal cringles (?) which are wrapped around a cleat on the other side of the boom. Nice and easy to tidy things up.

 

My main only has two reefing points, the highest being about 1/2 way up. I think this would give me about 30% main area.

 

What does everyone think? Should I get another set of points installed?

 

Considering I am planning to do some coastal cruising in the near future and my main is already on the small side.

 

SHANE

 

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PaulR

Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 11:16 pm

 

shanson wrote: I LOVE the idea of shock cord between the internal cringles (?) which are wrapped around a cleat on the other side of the boom.

 

 

DON"T use a cleat that will catch on many many things. I suggest a small flat plastic clip that is cheap, neat and non-fouling. Check the Ronstan Part PNP84 in their catalogue. Don't know it it's on their web site.

 

Cleats will encourage crew to tie off lines that will NOT give if you accidentally ease the reefed clew line and you'll end up with a torn mainsail.

 

 

 

Quote:

SHANE: My main only has two reefing points, the highest being about 1/2 way up. I think this would give me about 30% main area.

 

 

The deep reef is normally a fraction of the Luff length, not total area

See YachtingNZ Safety Regulations 2005-2008 12.6 & 12.7 (Page 214) "Mainsail ... reducing the effective luff by at least 40%."

 

If already small, and you are cruising, then possibly what you have is fine. Normally reefing the main at say 20 knots and then changing down headsails until only a small jib. Then a deep reef in the main as you may no longer want to go on to the foredeck.

 

You're cruising, so going to a smaller headsail earlier is smarter and safer.

Also your only there to enjoy the cruise, not beat another boat in a race.

 

See my earlier post & diagram.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s167 ... ng01-1.jpg

 

With a storm jib and a reefed main you may well be OK to gale force winds (40 knots) and thereafter the deep reef to 60 knots.

 

But it also depends upon your boat, displacement, controls etc.

 

 

 

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shanson

Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 11:49 pm

 

I already have a cleat in the right place on the boom (and yea it catches everything.) looks like I will replace it with a V or cam cleat (it holds the outhaul.)

 

I see what you mean by these hooks they will hold the shock leader great, I think I will leave it perminantly reaved (sp?) in the main.

 

As for the reefing I figured that it should be ok I have happily sailed in 20-25K so would reef sometime after that. also the second reef leaves me with about 30% sail area which although I would like another reef should be ok.

 

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PaulR

Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 11:55 pm

 

Yes that's the style of clip; but pull the shock cord DOWN UNDER the Boom and then UP to these clips. That way the OPEN/Side of the clip will be facing and VERY close to the track (if fitted) or grove where the foot slugs are. This will minimise fouling with lazy jacks, reefing lines, topping lifts and even halyards etc.

 

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shanson

Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 12:00 am

 

Sorry I just understood your comment re the % of luff. I'll have to go measure but 40% wouldn't be too far off.

 

I have just installed new slab reefing but I think the new reefing process will go something like this.

 

1) Drop the main halyard to a pre-marked position.

 

2) Pull by hand the reefing line and cleat.

 

3) Hook shock leader over hook on opposite side of boom.

 

4) Snub up the main halyard tight with winch.

 

Does that sound right to you? any comments?

 

Will go for a test run this we!

 

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PaulR

Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 8:38 am

 

Sounds fine but practice in the light to find what works fastest and safest for you.

 

Step 2. Pull by hand => small sail so small boat????

In heavy winch and when tired, wet, cold, hungry and possibly queasy(?) you may need a winch to help pull in the reef. That's why most modern and more older yachts are leading reefing lines back to the cockpit.

 

Rope clutches are being used more and are better than cleats, jammers or cam cleats, especially for reefing. But again, the size of your boat and loads govern the $costs.

 

 

Step 4. Many people would move this up to BEFORE step 2. i.e. set the luff and then worry about the outer clew coming down to the boom.

 

But then agin, the main point of this thread was to discuss ways of doing both stages with a SINGLE reefing line to make it easier with solo or short handed sailors, without having to leave the cockpit if possible.

 

On a fully crewed yacht, you can assign crew to each stage and "pop" a reef in very quickly.

 

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shanson

Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 8:43 pm

 

I have a winch to use as I have just run the reefing lines back to the cockpit. They are however run through cam cleats so I shall have to see how this goes.

 

As for the crew it's usually just me!

 

Thanks for all your help.

 

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Tim C

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:47 am

 

Regarding clutching reef lines, and for that matter halyards. I think it far more reliable to use the clutch as a temporary way of holding highly loaded lines, and get them backed up on a good old horn cleat. It has a much higher surface area to take the load. Ideally let the load off the clutch, before full sailing loads come on.

I'm talking about loads here on larger yachts and multihulls.

Most clutches only take up to 1 tonne load. Usually it is the rope cover that lets go, simply because it is such a small area to take the load on the rope, ruining a $300+ halyard.

 

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PaulR

Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:20 am

 

Vaild points TimC. I dislike the jammers and cam cleats for reefing lines as the high loads make them hard to release quickly, where as a rope clutch has a lever to push (thump or kick) open the holding jaws.

 

Problem is most yachts do NOT fit an extra cleat to back up the clutches, jammers or cam cleats. Must be $costs.

 

Valid point about the costs of halyards. That's exactly what happened to a main halyard whilst Wed night harbour racing last year. After a big bang, slight main slump, we tightened the cunningham and carried on with the inner core still intact, but had to replace the whole halyard for $310.

See costs still going up!!

 

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shanson

Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:56 pm

 

the reason I went to cams for my reefing lines was totally $$$.

 

BIG beefy offshore cams came out to about $60 each while clutches came out at $120-150 each.

 

I compromised and used cams for the reefing line and clutches for the main halyard and Vang.

 

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SloopJohnB

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:53 am

 

Another reefing system, from Selden

 

Saw it advertized in Octobers Sailing World mag.

 

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Knot Me

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:07 pm

 

Tim C wrote: Usually it is the rope cover that lets go, simply because it is such a small area to take the load on the rope, ruining a $300+ halyard.

 

 

That's very shortly about to be a thing of the past. Watch this space.

 

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