Seeking input on PHRF
Started by
YNZ
, Oct 17 2013 02:09 PM
76 replies to this topic
#11
otto
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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:52 AM
[quote name="Wild Oats, Booboo on board +.025 Nobody has ever come up with a great idea after a second bottle of water.
#12
markm
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Posted 31 October 2013 - 12:59 PM
Don't read this as disagreeing with comments re measurement, but :
Saying you're wanting more measurement is good and fine, my question and it's where I always get stuck is how?
Because if people can't answer that and in a manner that can be done objectively, transparently and applicable to the entire fleet then you have a system that no one will believe in.
Without the above the easiest solution is close to what we have, "want measurement based race IRC, want performance based, PHRF.
I've had a few half thoughts on how it might be done for NZ but I've heard no one else even make a start on the specifics of how (accepted Wild Oats comments which are good but limited). How does a decision for example as to whether a 930 should be on 0.725 or 0.800 get made and should an 88 be higher or lower?
What measurement solution (part or whole) would people trust?
Saying you're wanting more measurement is good and fine, my question and it's where I always get stuck is how?
Because if people can't answer that and in a manner that can be done objectively, transparently and applicable to the entire fleet then you have a system that no one will believe in.
Without the above the easiest solution is close to what we have, "want measurement based race IRC, want performance based, PHRF.
I've had a few half thoughts on how it might be done for NZ but I've heard no one else even make a start on the specifics of how (accepted Wild Oats comments which are good but limited). How does a decision for example as to whether a 930 should be on 0.725 or 0.800 get made and should an 88 be higher or lower?
What measurement solution (part or whole) would people trust?
#13
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Posted 31 October 2013 - 01:06 PM
Might have known you'd inflict a dose of logic to the argument Mark 
p.s. that was dangerously close to starting a 930/88 argument. Can we wait till KM and AA have settled the 930/AA argument first?
p.s. that was dangerously close to starting a 930/88 argument. Can we wait till KM and AA have settled the 930/AA argument first?
#14
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Posted 31 October 2013 - 01:44 PM
Something like this
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#15
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Posted 01 November 2013 - 02:00 PM
Mark - you and I have had this discussion for a while.
My point re measurement is as basic as the fact a Y11 will reach up the Coast quicker than a Farr 1020. But under the current results only philosophy this doesn't show. I'm not going to get into the skewed data from poor sample sizes that helps cause this either.
I also believe that if we took the 300 boats that had PHRF over the last 3 years we would agree on relative PHRF for Inshore / Offshore / and 2 handed for 80% of the fleet as read, we would observe and discuss obvious anomalies for the next 10% of the fleet in 30 minutes flat and then have to discuss and work through the not so obvious 9% of boats.1 hour. The last 1% - 3 boats - another hour....
And yes - I really believe it can be that simple - if people choose to make it so.
Note
For those who aren't aware, I was on the PHRF committee for several years, but resigned when I bought a marine business.
My point re measurement is as basic as the fact a Y11 will reach up the Coast quicker than a Farr 1020. But under the current results only philosophy this doesn't show. I'm not going to get into the skewed data from poor sample sizes that helps cause this either.
I also believe that if we took the 300 boats that had PHRF over the last 3 years we would agree on relative PHRF for Inshore / Offshore / and 2 handed for 80% of the fleet as read, we would observe and discuss obvious anomalies for the next 10% of the fleet in 30 minutes flat and then have to discuss and work through the not so obvious 9% of boats.1 hour. The last 1% - 3 boats - another hour....
And yes - I really believe it can be that simple - if people choose to make it so.
Note
For those who aren't aware, I was on the PHRF committee for several years, but resigned when I bought a marine business.
#16
floatsome
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Posted 13 November 2013 - 12:04 PM
Why do shorthanded crews race with both a shothanded h/cap and their normal h/cap in the Gold Cup, have their results listed for the shorthanded Div with shorthanded h/cap, but their normal h/cap (although shorthanded) for the combined division results? Why bother differentiating? Surely the recognition of having a lower handicap for being shorthanded, should warrant that handicap being used in the combined result??
#17
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Posted 13 November 2013 - 12:53 PM
Totally agreeWhy do shorthanded crews race with both a shothanded h/cap and their normal h/cap in the Gold Cup, have their results listed for the shorthanded Div with shorthanded h/cap, but their normal h/cap (although shorthanded) for the combined division results? Why bother differentiating? Surely the recognition of having a lower handicap for being shorthanded, should warrant that handicap being used in the combined result??
And how can a boat be faster short handed ?
Surely it could be as fast if you practiced but never faster ?
The best sailors do it two handed
#18
markm
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Posted 13 November 2013 - 01:29 PM
The Gold Cup scoring is correct.
PHRF is (largely) performance based and each category is derived from racing within the respective categories. Though the numbers may be similar, they are independent of each other.
Put another way, your short handed handicap reflects how you've gone in short handed races, against other short handed boats. It doesn't reflect how we may think you would go if you were sailing short handed racing against fully crewed boats.
This means your short handed PHRF may be higher than your inshore handicap. When this happens, it doesn't mean the committee thinks your boat goes faster sailing short handed than fully crewed, only that you are sailing better relative to the fleet short handed than you are fully crewed.
For Gold Cup, the short handed division is scored short handed PHRF because, well they're all sailing short handed.
When in the main division, all boats are treated as if racing without crew restriction and therefore scored under inshore.
PHRF is (largely) performance based and each category is derived from racing within the respective categories. Though the numbers may be similar, they are independent of each other.
Put another way, your short handed handicap reflects how you've gone in short handed races, against other short handed boats. It doesn't reflect how we may think you would go if you were sailing short handed racing against fully crewed boats.
This means your short handed PHRF may be higher than your inshore handicap. When this happens, it doesn't mean the committee thinks your boat goes faster sailing short handed than fully crewed, only that you are sailing better relative to the fleet short handed than you are fully crewed.
For Gold Cup, the short handed division is scored short handed PHRF because, well they're all sailing short handed.
When in the main division, all boats are treated as if racing without crew restriction and therefore scored under inshore.
#19
Jon
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Posted 13 November 2013 - 01:57 PM
Totally understand this Mark
It's just that they are seeking input into the PHRF
And I believe it would be more relevant if they were related, as in short handed boats could race on there SH rating against fully crewed boats on there inshore/offshore rating.
It's just that they are seeking input into the PHRF
And I believe it would be more relevant if they were related, as in short handed boats could race on there SH rating against fully crewed boats on there inshore/offshore rating.
The best sailors do it two handed
#20
YNZ
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Posted 05 December 2013 - 04:32 PM
Thanks again for all the responses, we had 75 in total.
I have attached a summary of the results for your information. We will use this to improve how PHRF is managed/administered and also to review how we manage the TCF's.
The prize winners have been drawn and bags sent out.
Andrew
I have attached a summary of the results for your information. We will use this to improve how PHRF is managed/administered and also to review how we manage the TCF's.
The prize winners have been drawn and bags sent out.
Andrew
Attached Files
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YNZ PHRF Survey Analysis.pdf 365.59KB
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