Safety Topics and concerns

[Island Time 1,235]

Just a thought from your comment about EPIRBs John.

 

Flares and epirbs serve (or at least can serve) a different function. Flares (LED or Pyrotechnic) will attract assistance from NEARBY vessels or the shore, if available.

 

EPIRBs call for assistance from over the horizon.

And yes, authorities will notice them, but often NOT in 1/2 an hour. If I understand correctly, some models need multiple sat connections (passes) to get a fix. This can easily be an hour or more. First the Sat gets a lock, transmits to the receiver terminal, which is monitored by the Maritime Rescue Centre - in Lower Hutt for NZ, then they call the local police who call the coastguard. EPIRB's are not "instant rescue"

 

Of course, using a resource that is close by is preferable - flares will do that, provided someone is nearby.

 

For local events (like Cat 3) it would/will make more sense to use an AIS beacon, which are now becoming available. With this, any AIS equiped vessel can see the distressed person/vessel on their chart! IMO, this is much more likely to get you collected by another vessel nearby. It is recent technology, and relies on vessels having AIS receivers at least.

[grant 40]

2. Epirbs. We have to have confidence that they are being monitored. I had accidently initiated mine in a grab bag once, (must have been at least 1/2 an hr). I rang coastguard and they were mildly surprised I think, that I had contacted them, not sure they had noticed.

 

 

 

Coastguard do not monitor EPIRB's, they are monitored centrally at the Rescue Co-ordination Centre (RCCNZ), best way to contact them in case of an accidental activation is either via Maritime Radio on Ch 16 or ph RCCNZ direct on 0508 472 269. Ideally you should make contact before turning the beacon off.

 

Coastguard would only get notified once a search was initiated and they were tasked to go look for you.

[Guest]

Cat 3 is a long off the beach race generally in sight of land. If I went tits up 1nm north of Rangi Light I'm willing to bet a flare would get a lot more attention than everything else purely for the simple fact more people have eyes than they have receivers for electronic warning/distress/information sending systems. If you're a bit further out say the Poor Knights the dudes in all the 7mt tinnys know what a flare is, which is lucky as they have nothing aboard that can pick up electronic systems bar a VHF.

 

And that's even before you get into many boats that do a Cat 3 are wet and only do it once maybe twice a year. So you can imagine the state of some of the gear when the time comes for it to be relied on. Yes they should be maintained but reality says a lot won't be. Yes the batteries need replacement but we know many won't get that. Yes people should know how to use the gear but again reality shows many won't so if the excrement hits the rotating device will the electronics even work and if they do will they be used correctly?

 

The best thing that could be done is extend the life of the flares. I've let of motherloads of them and never had one not work. The majority of those flares were between 8 and 10 years old, some 18 years old. In fact one of the most noted features is the older the chute flare was the higher it went and the longer it burnt, or so it appeared.

 

Taking flares away and then relying on electronics is plainly silly. Flares are simple, last a long time and way way more people, even non boaters, know what one is than there are with gear that can pick up electronics.

 

As someone mentioned earlier if there was a way people could bang off their out of date, after that's been extended to 6-8 years, flares then that would be a large yet very simple safety gain.

[Clipper 343]

Flares are simple, last a long time

 

Then why are the expiry dates 3 years? Or is it 2 years?

If people had to buy less flares, there would be less bitching about them.

[Clive 13]

As someone mentioned earlier if there was a way people could bang off their out of date, after that's been extended to 6-8 years, flares then that would be a large yet very simple safety gain.

Fully agree, learning how to use the various flares was an eye opener!

[Adrianp 120]

Fully agree, learning how to use the various flares was an eye opener!

 

And hopefully not a hand burner!

 

Tim C asked me during our inspection as to how each flare was used - and I was holding some of them upside down, which wouldn't have been a great outcome!

 

Tim C, thanks for being the "voice of reason" with this safety stuff

[Island Time 1,235]

For me the different types of flares, the different firing systems, and the instructions in stupid small writing are almost as dangerous as the issue you needed them for anyway! On a dark, wet and windy night, if you have not recently looked at your flares, and read the instructions, they are likely to make the issue worse! Especially if is an inexperienced person using them - ie skipper is disabled/gone whatever. Holding them upside down is very common - they are often not intuitive, and they obviously should be!

 

IMO laser flares would be better. Easy to test, and can't hurt you. They don't explode, are not dangerous upside down, or any other way, and if they are set off upside down you can right them!

[ex TL systems 63]

Don,t quote me but i would say if you were to practise with a few out of date flares on 5 november or even midnight on 31 december, and away from the sea , and were sensible, and there were other fireworks going off, ummmm you would probably be ok

[Tim C 23]

Good Feedback.

My personal opinions on some of these issues:

 

PLB's were recently described to me as 'body finders'. By the time a rescue centre has activated a search, and transmitted the position to boats in the area it is often way too late. I think advances in AIS personal beacons in years to come (as mentioned here) will be way more viable, and give boats on the water a chance to return to a crew man. So let's all be quiet on that one until technology catches up. Could be a great App to write for our smart phones...

 

Yes I think if there is no stove aboard, and a draining fuel locker, then two extinguishers should be adequate.

 

Depth Sounder: I was stunned when a log was made optional a few years ago. With a compass and a speedo a skipper can Dead Reckon his position with some confidence. The idea of retaining a depth (echo) sounder was you had a chance of cross checking your position from the depth contour on the chart, or at least see the change as it got shallower. A lead line is useless at any speed or depth as a serious navigation tool, and is not currently allowed. I'll await further discussion on this.

 

Flares: There are issues of international standards, and liability if a NZ organisation reduces those standards. But I'm intending to push for a reduction of pyrotechnics if laser flares are carried. The current ones are woeful with their 6 point instructions, and I think I make a strong point about that with anyone who does a Cat 1-3 with me. Most people I've asked to quickly identify 'the hot end' get one of the two wrong. They are scary in a panicked situation for the injury they could cause. I think an extended expiry was tried a few years ago, but again it was an issue of liability. I think in a Cat 3 emergency situation however, flares would be the best rescue option with boats around.

 

My strong position is on the heavy weather Cat 3 rig, which should include a jib that is way smaller than current rules, and ideally involve an inner forestay. Current heavy weather jib rules is about full fore triangle. I've discussed this with most of you skippers, and nearly all now have some sensible set up. Those that haven't have had their rigs have come down! (just joking). I think rules should be foremast about getting boat and crew home safely, and add on distress gear should be secondary.

 

Keep the thoughts coming folks! Change on some of these things is not easy or quick, so needs some pressure from you guys to work on safety rule changes.

[Tim C 23]

And while of got your attention, and yes I've mentioned this before. But if any of you have this model of Man Overboard light, and you are going sailing this week, please test it, with batteries, by throwing it in the water. If it works like this, on its side, please send me pictures. The one time you'll need it, you'll really need it to work. It does seem many are fine, but there are some out there that are not. Three out of three I've seen work like this below...

[Clipper 343]

My strong position is on the heavy weather Cat 3 rig, which should include a jib that is way smaller than current rules, and ideally involve an inner forestay. Current heavy weather jib rules is about full fore triangle. I've discussed this with most of you skippers, and nearly all now have some sensible set up. Those that haven't have had their rigs have come down! (just joking).

 

No, I think that's about right, no joke at all. I added an inner forestay before my last cat 3 check with you and now wonder how the rig survived before then.

[Freedom GBE 27]

Inner forestay is required with two reefs. In a gust we drop the head sail all together and sail reasonably happily without a head sail. The main gets a hammering.

 

Our rig has a dork and we cant use an inner head sail.

 

Tried sailing with just a head sail which didn't work very well upwind, nearly ended up on a wall.

[johnMi 2]

Surely that's not right Tim about PLBs especially with GPS.

If you have a proper Lifejacket surely you could expect to stay alive, to get picked up within say an hour, is this not correct?

I do a large amount of solo sailing, and have given up tethering myself to the boat, because I rely on my PLB.

[Black Panther 1,586]

I'd go back to a harness.

[Clipper 343]

If I am out by myself, I usually have a waterproof vhf and gps in my pocket. I have now got a PLB, but think the VHF or even phone could be better for getting a quick response.

[johnMi 2]

Realistically who else harnesses themselves when singlehanding, It gets caught on everything and you can't reach different objects when you need to

[Clipper 343]

Realistically who else harnesses themselves when singlehanding, It gets caught on everything and you can't reach different objects when you need to

Not me. Life jacket yes, harnessed on, no way.

[Clive 13]

Not me. Life jacket yes, harnessed on, no way.

Agree - If you fall over you may drown if you get trapped under the boat you may drown. Leave it up to the individual to choose. Also boats go over more then people fall overboard.

[MartinRF 53]

Not me. Life jacket yes, harnessed on, no way.

Agree - If you fall over you may drown if you get trapped under the boat you may drown. Leave it up to the individual to choose. Also boats go over more then people fall overboard.

Personally, I have fallen overboard more times than I have capsized. I have done neither in many years (getting old?).

 

/Martin

[Tim C 23]

Surely that's not right Tim about PLBs especially with GPS.

If you have a proper Lifejacket surely you could expect to stay alive, to get picked up within say an hour, is this not correct?

I do a large amount of solo sailing, and have given up tethering myself to the boat, because I rely on my PLB.

 

Personal Opinion:

I think that is the completely wrong attitude. Instead of being self reliant on being attached to your own boat, you are consciously relying on others, many would be volunteers, to rescue you if you had, what could start as a minor, slip.

I can't help thinking if we got rid of EPIRBs, flares, VHF's, suddenly everyone would have much better boats and rigs, and think far harder about the risks of their boating.

Rescue also means 'Risk You', as in someone else has to effectively risk their lives to get to someone in trouble.

My previous comments on rigs are about that. Just because it suddenly blows 40 knots, which does happen in our boating area, doesn't mean that a whole bunch of masts should come down, boats rescued, and insurance companies claimed upon.

As skippers and owners it is up to us to get out boat, crew and ourselves home safely. The absolute last resort is asking for help.

 

But to answer your question, I'm not sure of the exact response time of an EPIRB, but I think you would be disappointed in historical rescue data and times. I'd suggest the system is more designed for offshore rescues, where eventually pinpointing and getting a rescue boat to a raft or distressed boat takes hours or days anyway.

 

Perhaps a review of your jack line system so you can stay attached is a better approach...