Safety Topics and concerns

[Island Time 1,230]

Agreed Tim.

John, 1 hour is absolutely BEST CASE scenario. Do NOT rely on this!!

 

NZ has no geo-stationary sat coverage, so you may or may not be in the coverage zone when you trigger your epirb. Waiting for a sat to pass over can be several hours, before the message even gets to the Authorities. Then there is data processing time, for the RCC to look at the data, pinpoint the location (best with a GPS EPIRB) pass the data to the local rescue organisation, for them to task a resource (if available) and then get to you.

It is not unrealistic, even close to Auckland, for an epirb initiated rescue to take several hours or more.

 

Harnesses are a pain, but I do wear one when single handed, at night, or in rough conditions. Yes there are times when I have not - and I understand the risks. My lifejacket (inflatable) has a PLB with GPS, a knife, a whistle, a light, and MOST importantly, a spray hood. Many people have been found drowned on the surface in heavy conditions. A spray hood is a great help. I'm waiting for the first AIS beacon with a EPIRB combined, and that will replace my PLB. Watch this space, I hope to have one available 1st 1/4 next year.

 

My best advice is - STAY ABOARD!!!

 

Rescue services expect you can look after yourself for hours if not days, so make sure you can.

[Tim C 23]

I don,t like the idea of cutting a hole in a boat near the waterline for the required escape hatchs in an offshore multihull, before capsize they are too low and a potential weakness , many are sealed up anyway, after capsize they may also be in the wrong place, too close to the new waterline. A marked cut here area with suitable tool strapped inside and out should still be an option. it worked for the Rose Noelle crew.

 

You don't need to have a hatch, and many offshore owners don't. But they do need hull cutting equipment accessible after a capsize, and the position of the hole to be cut clearly marked on the hull, so as not to be trying to cut through a bulkhead from the outside.

See Rule 17.14

[Tim C 23]

I've compiled a list of subjects to talk to at the Safety conference:

 

Rigs (see my favourite two slides below of current rules and possible outcomes...)

 

Flooding (many modern boats drain to one central bilge area, which means complete flooding that can't be contained. Many imported cats and some mono's have this arrangement)

 

Fire Extinguishers if a stove isn't carried.

Faulty Dan Buoys

Flares and Laser Flares

Depth Sounders

Keeping compliance costs down.

 

Let me know if you see any obvious omissions.

[Clipper 343]

I thought Cat 3 requires only 40% luff reduction, 50% for Cat 1 and 2?

 

And with regards to the list, how about sensible methods for cutting away rig, be it 12 hacksaw blades, or serrated knife for fibre lashings...?

[Tim C 23]

I thought Cat 3 requires only 40% luff reduction, 50% for Cat 1 and 2?

 

And with regards to the list, how about sensible methods for cutting away rig, be it 12 hacksaw blades, or serrated knife for fibre lashings...?

 

The mainsail rule is a little ambiguous, so expect it to be tightened. 50% has been recommended for the last two years, mainly due to mainsails being closer to rectangles than triangles, ie lots more area up high. It's unlikely much will be changed before the next handbook in two years, but expect 50% reefs on Cat 3 new mainsail from then at a guess.

 

Again, my aim is to get boats home. In 40 knots plus half your main luff on a really light multi is plenty. Of course I am but one voice here.

 

Hacksaw, blades and knives are already compulsory. It's up to the owner to have the right gear aboard to get rid of the rig. Bolt cutters were needed previously for rod rigging. Maybe they should still be if you have a rod forestay? Most people would drive out the pin. Remember the rules are minimums. If your boat has something unusual, it is up to you to have the right gear to match that. Not everything can be specified...

[Clipper 343]

Sorry, what I meant was that rather than the specified gear (12 blades), appropriate gear should be carried, to be determined by the inspector. I am getting at the fact that 12 compulsory blades is a silly requirement if you would use a knife.

 

And on your slide, the boat has a large jib shown - surely the balance is not as bad if storm jib flown?

 

And just cause pictures are fun, here is Voom under 3 reefs and storm jib, with newly fitted inner forestay (spreaders to front beam), doing about 19 knots!

[Tim C 23]

Sorry, what I meant was that rather than the specified gear (12 blades), appropriate gear should be carried, to be determined by the inspector. I am getting at the fact that 12 compulsory blades is a silly requirement if you would use a knife.

 

And on your slide, the boat has a large jib shown - surely the balance is not as bad if storm jib flown?

 

And just cause pictures are fun, here is Voom under 3 reefs and storm jib, with newly fitted inner forestay (spreaders to front beam), doing about 19 knots!

 

I hear you about hacksaw blades, but I think there are bigger issues to work through first.

 

My point of that graphic is how silly the current rule is: huge jib and tiny mainsail. Just unrealistic in terms of rig balance and support.

 

And yes, I'm actually using that photo as a good example of what can be achieved to get a boat home safely. I bet you were comfortable with that (small) amount of sail, especially if you were doing 19 knots!

[Freedom GBE 27]

I've compiled a list of subjects to talk to at the Safety conference:

 

Rigs (see my favourite two slides below of current rules and possible outcomes...)

 

Flooding (many modern boats drain to one central bilge area, which means complete flooding that can't be contained. Many imported cats and some mono's have this arrangement)

 

Fire Extinguishers if a stove isn't carried.

Faulty Dan Buoys

Flares and Laser Flares

Depth Sounders

Keeping compliance costs down.

 

Let me know if you see any obvious omissions.

[drbob 0]

And with regards to the list, how about sensible methods for cutting away rig, be it 12 hacksaw blades, or serrated knife for fibre lashings...?

 

When I dropped the rig earlier this year we cut it away (just as well coz when I pulled the boat out for work it was obvious the rig had sawed into the back of the keel and into the hull). I carry a rigging wire cutter, ali handles about 40cm long, has the arcing scissor blades that close into a small circle. Very effective, better than bolt crushers. Hacksaw would have been bs bouncing around as we were.

[johnMi 2]

I agree with you that I should reassess where my jacklines are positioned on my boat, but I have not yet found a good compromise.

I will not fall over in heavy weather. If not alreadytethered I am that much more on guard.

The time will be when it's 5 to 10 knots when I'm drifting along at similar speeds. Your guard is down, and enjoying yourself. Therefore unless you are tethered ALL the time you may as well consider yourself at risk.

I guess that's why I take the approach of not tethering and rely on others if things go pear shaped.

I have reassessed my attitude taking into account a lower chance of rescue, and still stick to the same attitude.

I enjoy singlehanding far too much to be tangled in tethers etc.

Anyway, emergency services have to keep in practice don't they?

[Black Panther 1,581]

I've always thought it odd that most (monos) have two lines down the toerail. I always thought one line on the centreline made more sense.

[Battleship 100]

Agreed BP, keeping the Jacklines close to the center line and the tether short so you can't fall over would be ideal in a perfect world.

I have actually ditched the webbing jacklines in favor of wire because although the wire represents a possible slip hazard it is just so much easier to use, doesn't snag like the webbing ones used to and easy to use means they will be used.

 

JohnMi none of my business really but I can't think of any possible scenario where relying on others is a good option.

[Island Time 1,230]

Jackstays (slight digression - originally named as they make "Jack" stay aboard - RN sailors were often referred to as Jack - like Jack tar etc) are a pain, just like harnesses.

The best ones run in one length fore to aft so you don't have to re-clip to go fwd. Hard to do that on the center-line - you must go around the mast one way or the other!

If you only ever clip on to the windward side (unless of course you have to work on something on the lee side and your harness tether won't reach) you are very unlikely to end up in the water - the tether should not be that long.

[MikeD 3]

I'm unsure whether the Cat 3 regulations should be changed, or whether race organisers should be choosing a different safety category. For the racing we want to do (SSANZ, Gulf, Coastal Classic, Akld-Tauranga) I'm OK with Cat 4.

 

Irrespective of our safety gear, if the forecast isn't suitable we won't go. Weather forecasts have improved vastly so the risks of being caught out are modest.

 

These comments really apply to the sailing we want to do, not specifically to safety categories.

 

Freeboard - I'm told a new rule about minimum freeboard is being introduced and that Excess won't comply. Is this just a multihull rule? Details please.

 

Bunks and headroom. We dress for the worst conditions all the time (wet or drysuits) so very little extra benefit in going below. You would have to fight our crew to force them below.

 

Bunks for 2/3 crew needs flexibility - we would have to sail with 3 crew instead of 5 to match our bunks - which is less safe!

 

Depth sounder - extremely little benefit for the price and maintenance on a multi.

 

Fire extinguishers - whatever the fireman requires for our appliances. (XL had 4 extinguishers on a boat without stove, outboard or cigarettes)

 

Fuel - 25 litres is unnecessary. about 10l would be plenty for the nearest anchorage. Suggest: For multihulls, Litres = LWL, m

 

Jackstays - fore/aft jackstays, as per rule, are dangerous on cats in the working area.

 

50% reef. For delivery we'd use wingmast only. The only time a 50% reef would be used is if still racing. Boat balance - a rotating mast can tune the helm load easily. Not convinced a small jib is required in such cases.

 

Modern multis are not to everyone's liking, but the reality is their numbers will increase, and will want to do races such as the Coastal. The combination of NOR and/or safety rules need to adapt to cater for yachts that may only be racing for half a day. Just loading up on gear is not the answer either - extra weight generally reduces the safety margins, disproportionately so for smaller boats.

 

The safety rules don't reflect actual risks for fast multis. In order: Elevators, bow volume (not freeboard!), life jackets on, helmets on, personal knife, wet/drysuit.

[Delacruz 1]

MikeD

Sounds like Cat3's going to slow you down- like every other boat that has to be Cat3 compliant to compete in these awesome coastal races .

Looks like you may just have to race as an unofficial entry, like the Kite boards, windsurfers and beach cats do.

 

Keep CAT3 as it is- no changes please except do away with the 'Lead Line'and please don't interfere with our staying systems, thats just way over the top

 

Commonsence Yachting NZ

[rigger 47]

A few observations

 

NZ has no geo-stationary sat coverage, so you may or may not be in the coverage zone when you trigger your epirb.

 

Sorry but not correct, it is not being in site of a low earth orbit sat that can cause a delay. The INMARSAT systems are what a large number of ships use for comms and NZ is in the footprint of the systems.

take a look at https://www.cospas-sarsat.int/en/system ... sat-system

 

Navigation. It is my understanding that it is now legal for ships to rely on electronic charting.

Yes but the shipboard requirements for doing so is far beyond what you or I would carry onboard.

Things like screen size, redundancy of systems, charts of the required standard.

If you are interested this site has some info http://www.ecdis-info.com/ecdis_regulations.html

 

On the AIS PLB's if you are coastal you are likely to have your signal detected - think marinetraffic.com - open sea there is sat monitoring of AIS, but you may not be noticed unless the system recognises your beacon and alerts some one (or an individual notices you).

 

As the AIS PLB are relatively new some older systems may not display the information correctly - or at all.

Also not all AIS PLBs are the same - there is one make that has a DSC alerting function so it will trigger an alert on a DSC capable VHF whilst also sending out the AIS message.

 

Not meaning to lecture.

[Black Panther 1,581]

Still think a harness is the fence at the top of the cliff..

 

IT - I've never been too fussed about having to unclip and reclip once to get forward. When that happens you are fully aware and alert, never heard of anyone being lost overboard as a result.

[Island Time 1,230]

Rigger, Quite right as usual!

 

I'm referring to the low orbit sats that communicate to the Local User terminal, then NZ rescue resources via the RCC, not what ships might see. There may be no ships around you. Currently the low orbit sats do not have 24/7 coverage of NZ, although apparently this may be rectified within 4 years..

 

This is only my understanding - if it is no or no longer correct, I'm happy to be corrected/updated?

 

Also, re the charting,

Yes, ships have lots of regs, lots of power, and lots more $ than the average yacht. My point is that they do use and rely on electronic charts, because of there accuracy and convenience. The commercial world has accepted that electronic charting is safer than the old paper/sextant systems. Backup and redundancy are another issue.

[Guest]

I prefer jacklines down each side (can't do centreline on the current one anyway) and to hook onto the opposite side to where I want to work. That way I can lean on the tether while using both hands to get the job done. It works very well and there is no physical way you can go over the lifelines.

 

Also your tether length has to be either that short you physically can't get over your life lines or long enough that if you do go over you can get around to the transom and to your waiting 'get out of the water' gear. Tethers that allow you to fall over the side but not that far are silly, try and get yourself back aboard when hanging upside down around the boot topping area, you'll find it's near impossible in a good situation let alone one where you're cold and tired.

[johnMi 2]

I'm still gonna rely on my PLB...

Thanks rigger, for restoring a bit of my Faith in the PLB