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Reviving dead lead acid batteries


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We're finally getting around to a weekend or few away on the boat and I've discovered an electrical issue that i cant solve with my limited knowledge.

 

Due to what I suspect is a faulty auto bilge pump, my house bank is completely flat, and i mean completely flat ie it wont even power a light bulb. Its 4 6v lead acid battery's wired to 12v and charged via a separate alternator and next step controller

 

When i start the engine to recharge (starter battery is separate and has its own alternator) the house bank doesn't receive any current via its separate alternator and next step controller. The next step controller is flashing green on 'state indicator' and flashing red on the 'error indicator'. Hence something is wrong and probably the reason the house bank isnt getting any charge. 

 

Question for those that know about this stuff.

If the house bank is completely flat, could it be that the controller doesn't 'see' it stops feeding juice to it, and hence the error message?

 

The plan is to put a big meaty battery charger on the house bank and hopefully revive it a bit, which in turn will hopefully correct the flashing red error light.

 

I've given every thing a visual check and tightened all terminals and nothing has changed nor was their anything obviously wrong.

 

I appreciate that I'm probably up for a new house bank sooner rather than later, but if i can get another summer out of this bank I'll be happy.

 

If any of you who are in the know can offer any advice it'd be much appreciated.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

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as above

 

check electrolyte is just above plates

 

then try something like this

  1. Recond Reconditioning of deeply discharged batteries. This step is used to restore deeply discharged open vented batteries. With increased charging voltage over a limited time, the voltage is allowed to rise so that the battery starts to emit gas. As a result you get a mix in the battery that is good both for its capacity and service life. Note that the battery may emit explosive gases during this step...................The charger reconditions the battery between 30 min and 4 hours depending on the need of the battery. 

http://www.cteknz.co.nz/tabid/319/ProductID/2069/Default.aspx

 

yes, completely flat batteries can be hard for smart-chargers to see

 

yes, a "manual" charge can give them enough charge so the smart charger can see them and start charging them

 

if that's enough - good

 

if not, and they are open top types where you can check the electrolyse, you could try bringing them home and trying to charge them (4 x 6v batteries) individually with around 8 volts, with caps off, until they are popping and spitting for 10? min

 

then rest them for 10 min, then charge for 10min, rest for 10 etc.

 

when the electrolyte is up around 1.275 sg you should be done

 

really need a digital volt meter, a range of small appliance transformers to get 8v and an electrolyte tester for this kind of mucking around...

 

old laptop transformers that put out 16-17v at round 2amp are good for this kind of stuff for 12volt batteries - or two 6 volt in series...

http://support.rollsbattery.com/support/solutions/articles/4347-measuring-specific-gravity

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Ouch. Sorry to hear that tuffyluffy.

Do you have any idea how long the bank may have been totally flat for?
Do you have a charge splitter to divide and send charge to House and Start Bank, or a VSR? If a splitter, then the charge current will be going to the Start Bank only. The House Bank is not "seen" by the splitter, because there is no resistance. If the Start bank is close to the House bank, grab some Jumper cables and link them across and start the engine and run it for say 5minutes and then disconnect and check the voltage on the House bank. That should have brought the Voltage up enough for the battery to accept a charge.

How big is the Alternator? It is really good to give them a good belt of a charge. At least you have a Next Step, because that will ensure exactly that happens.

Don't worry about equalization charger or the Ctek version called Recon, which is rubbish. You cannot recon a battery sadly. Equalisation charge is purely about gassing a battery. The gas stirs up the electrolyte and mixes it up. It does nothing else to the battery. If you are hard charging a battery, it does pretty much the same thing. It is when a Battery sits in Float mode for too long that Stratification takes place. Thats where the Acid separates from the water and the gassing stirs it all back up again.

 

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Thanks for the feedback guys.

 

Of course! I hadn't thought to through the emergency parallel switch to liven up the house bank, that should do it, i hope.

 

Funny how often there's a simple solution looking you straight in the face that's overlooked, or is it just me.

 

Will give it a go and if that doesn't work, I'lll try the charger idea. Here's hoping the dead bank is the problem and not something a bit more complicated.

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The issue with charging is that there needs to be sufficient volts available to excite the alternator. The emergency parallel should do that, but it will be hard on the start battery,as it will try to charge the house bank. The alt with the next step regulator will charge WAY faster than almost any charger.

If you want to use a charger, then check the specs and ensure it can charge a flat battery - many can't as they too need a min starting voltage.

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The issue with charging is that there needs to be sufficient volts available to excite the alternator. The emergency parallel should do that, but it will be hard on the start battery,as it will try to charge the house bank. The alt with the next step regulator will charge WAY faster than almost any charger.

If you want to use a charger, then check the specs and ensure it can charge a flat battery - many can't as they too need a min starting voltage.

 

The house bank alternator is a monster 120amp unit, so if i can get it to recognize the bank, it wont take long before large dollops of current hit it and hopefully bring it back to life - fingers crossed.

 

I appreciate that the banks capacity will be well down, but if i can get it to last the rest of the year, the Lithium batteries I'd like to replace it with will get even cheaper - They're about half the price they were 5 years ago and falling rapidly

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a virtually cost no object

 

state of the art

 

yuasa lithium battery

 

built for aerospace 

 

in 2013

 

100407716-NTSB-displays-charred-dreamlin

 

why did it happen?

 

The investigation was unable to pinpoint the root cause of the battery cell short-circuit. Neither could Japanese investigators

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/11/travel/boeing-787-dreamliner-investigation-report/

 

imho

 

a bit too soon to expect

 

a developing technology that has a history of overheating issues

 

​(ie thermal runaway fire-bomb)

 

to produce safe, reliable, affordable boat batteries

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Do you have any specific ones or suppliers in mind? I am in the market for boat batteries right this moment.

 

New thread or PM. Saves this one getting confusing.

 

Nah, sorry Knotty, apart from watching broader prices from some manufacturers i haven't got into the detail - to earlier days for me. 

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If you are in a position of having the capital for the higher upfront costs of Lithium, you might find that life is easier and that choice is a cost effective one over time.


 


Much of this depends on the knowledge of the operator and how they treat a battery system.


There is an old saying that batteries don’t die, they are killed.


Good management practices are your insurance against early failure, regardless of the technology used.


 


Lithium-ion vs AGM? The choice is yours. Personally I think the time is right to consider Lithium in the marine industry as a cost effective, reliable, high performance solution.


 


 


Last week (it was only out of curiosity you understand) I went for a test drive in a Lithium-ion powered Tesla Model S – and as we know, no self-respecting electric vehicle manufacturer would still use lead acid based battery technologies today. Time for the marine industry to catch up?


 


http://www.dpl-energy.com/faq/difference-between-lithium-and-agm-26.html


 


tesla battery fires - lucky they could get out and walk away...


 


tesla-model-s-fire.jpg


 


tesla-fire-close-up.jpg


 


tesla-bursts-into-flames-1.jpg?w=628&h=4


 


Fire-1.jpg


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Li-ion is still a very expensive setup. Not only does the battery cost you your arm and leg, the other arm and leg is taken by the cost of the special Charger. This results in your name being shortened to Bob when you go swimming and seeing as i don't look like a Bob, I'll have to stick to FLA for awhile at least.
The issue of LiPo batteries doing an impression of Nov 5 is mostly due to poor manufacturing. Hence why many of the  Chinese made "Hover Boards" became a fireworks spectacular for Christmas. The well made batteries tend not to have the same issue. As Elon Musk says, they have a failure rate of 1:10,000, where as petrol engine fires are at a rate of 1:1300 :wtf:
Interestingly, Tesla claims that their battery was damaged by debris from the road in both the fires. Yet they made changes to their Charge/Discharge software.
FLA (Flooded Lead Acid) can still be the best most effective solution to Deep cycle(unless weight saving is a major factor) AGM and Gel are not as good, due to not being able to accept as fast a hard charge and discharge that an FLA can handle. Providing you have the ability of producing enough charge current that is.
LiPo needs to come down in cost dramatically yet and in fact, i don't see why it is as expensive as it seems to be.
Yet another new Lithium technology is in development right now. LiO2 or also called Lithium Air technology. It is just another advancement that will allow faster charge and discharge ability.
 

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I am a firm believer in AGMs. They are a set and forget solution. 

FLAs are a pain...and to be blunt are the reason why AGMs were invented.

If you are running your system to the point of critical discharge then you need more input and more storage. 

Over a ten year cycle AGMs are quite cheap. Especially when you consider that with a proper set up the only maintenance is to check the hold downs and check that the terminals are clean !!

No frigging around with decriminalised water and glass n rubber thingys..

I run 4 @ 105 amphrs and 2 @ 33 amphrs...for house. (the 33 amp are in case I need remote power, being light enough to easily carry)....Did I mention that you cant spill them and that they will work in any position...even upside down ??

The 7th is up in the bow as a make mr anchor winch happy battery.

The engine crank is a FLA...and I am now on my third....all the others are original.

 

I have installed and advised many people on the AGM route and so far over many years have not had a single complaint or a boat that wishes to return to FLAs...

 

Good "lotsa copper" wiring and a quality multy stage charger (with an AGM setting) that has temperature sensing....and dont flog the system by expecting constant deep discharging and over zealous recharging speeds.

 

You should expect hands off for ten years (or more). :thumbup:

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You are 100% spot on with the AGM's and you an add Gel as a close second to that as well. But they have the one exception to FLA.. The charge and discharge rates. That may not be an issue to everyone and of course the notable down side to FLA is the liquid as you said. But not all pv use need to worry about installing batteries on their sides.
For me, it is about getting charge back into the Bank as fast as I can, because that means less Diesel and engine hrs. Many consider the sum of battery cost, life and maintenance, but few ever consider the cost of engine hrs (either main or Genset) with the huge cost of recon or replacement. Not to mention the running of an engine in a quiet little bay with others around you.
I look at a much larger picture of overall operating cost, just because I am a little nerdier in that way.
I have the special caps on my batteries to save water and I add water maybe once every 2 or 3 yrs. So no great hardship there.

Interestingly, I have been helping a friend with a large Home installation he has just had, by interpreting all the information he has spat out in relation to the software. I am really impressed by these state of art charging/inverting/grid tie units. All German and the software tells you everything including stuff you don't really need to know. It has been extremely telling. Anyway, the part I was shocked about was the battery system. At first I was baffled by the very poor charge/discharge rate is the set up. But then I discovered that this was because of the Warranty of the batteries. I did not realize that when you read the fine print, to get a 5yr or 10yr warranty that was advertised in the larger print, you had to operate the batteries at no greater than 20% of their charge/discharge figures. And if a battery failed, to claim the Warranty, you had to be able to supply that software info so they could see that the battery was indeed always at kept within the stated parameter. And even then, the battery was "payed out n" in relation to it's age. So the older, the less it was worth. When you calculate that into a Solar energy system, it actually became uneconomical. At least here in NZ. If you have electricity at the gate, it's cheaper in the long run to just stay connected.
The Tesla Power wall may perhaps change that, but it's too early to call yet, as we don't have a firm price on what they will cost here yet. It looks like one company is going to import them, being Contact Energy and that could make it expensive. 

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While that is true BP. don't forget to add in the price of the electricity to plug in the hybrid.... most seem to conveniently forget about that. 

Our fuel use is about $300 per month, for two cars, about 2000 KM's average travel distance combined - about 6 2/3 cents per K (fuel only). One car averages about 4.7 - 5 ltrs per 100K, the other 7.5-8. Modern petrol engines are amazingly economical!

 

That being said, electric cars are coming, and not too far away, IMO.

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He says the cost of the electricity is so small as to be inconsequential. As in cents per charge.

Hmmm, no not completely true. It is still however many cents per Kwh that the supplier charges. I don't know if they will make it cheaper than a normal house connection, but I assume being commercial, they will charge commercial rates to the company with the "electrical bowser". I don't know how many Kilowatts of charge the Tesla actually takes, but lets say 10Kwhrs at 30cents/Kwhr and the Car is good for 320Km before recharge.

Then you have to factor in the cost of the Car. So far, all the electric cars on offer and way over the top expensive. So lets say $70K for an Electric and $35K for a Petrol. $35K in your pocket is a heck of a lot of Petrol at $500 per month. Although yes, prices will come down. Tesla's latest is about to be released at US$30K as against the last one at....I forget exactly, but certainly above US$70K.

 

The big plus for the US is that Elon Musk has said any Tesla buyer is going to get free electricity fillups for the rest of the Cars life. I can't see that happening here in NZ. At least our electricity is more "green", but it has to be considered in some countries, that generation is not all that planet friendly. Electric cars are simply shifting pollution from the road to the Generation plant. Add to that the issues of making LiFePO4 batteries currently, is very carbon unit hungry and a very recent report is now saying that the disposal of these batteries is going to have to change from landfill dumping to some other means because the concoction left over poisons Soil so badly, the bacteria die. I have no clue if that is true or silly anti propaganda, just what I read.

 

Another big issue is what the second hand market will be like for the older Electrical Cars. People won't buy one if they know it is going to need a huge amount of money spent on a new Battery. That issue has already been a biggy for the Prius.

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