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Is it worth to the VHF radio have DSC function. Anyone use it?


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Funny you mention that KM, cause my reds and oranges are entirely different to as you describe. Most interestingly, my orange is not a can, but looks a hell of a lot like a red, until closer inspection. And the reds don't have fold out metal handles. But having familirised myself with the instructions, in daylight, nice and calmly on the mooring without any kids, wah's or any other distractions like a sinking boat I'm fairly confident I know which end to start at, which would almost definitely be the VHF and PLB anyway.

 

I wouldn't criticizes anyone for not known how to operate flares. There is no legal way to practice using them. Your still bitching about that time I had a little practice at Arkles  ;-) 

 

You can test an EPIRB or PLB, you can go for a swim in your life jacket, you can do radio checks with your VHF, you can even play with old fire extinguishers if you want. You try letting off old flares and all merry hell breaks loose.

 

As to the benefit of flares, do you have any examples of anyone being rescued due to the use of flares?

 

The last two examples I red show flares to be as useful as tits on a bull. Robin Know-Johnson tried hailing a ship with flares, completely ignored him (back many moons ago pre PLB's and VHF's). Most recently Waimanu, the Townson 32, tried flares to attract attention of a passing ship while sinking rapidly? How did he get rescued? - PLB.

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Well done for doing that but you should have done it before yesterday.

You do realise VHF and PLB have limited, at times very limited range? Often less than a parachute would.

 

And if you sink by me I'd go for a flare first. It's rare to have the VHF on and I have no ability to pick up a PLB but I do have good eyes and know what a flare looks like.

 

Hmmmm.... You are a fast runner. I am impressed at how fast you disappeared when the cop car arrived ;)

 

Are you serious? You have never seen any of the many news articles, comments etc about 'a flare being sited', surly you're just taking the piss.

 

When you popped that one at Arkles within seconds the VHF was alive with calls about it as were the land lines to CG. So much so it took me close to 4 minutes to break in and tell them all you'd been drinking and were doing a safety check. But I was only on a handheld in Arkles so reception wasn't legend which wouldn't helped

Oh I've done it before yesterday. The point there is that flares are not intuitive to use. You do need to read the label properly, and errors in use can cause substantial personal injury. All other safety devices and means of calling for help are fairly much intuitive. PLB - push the red button, VHF, turn on, hold the talk button in and talk. Life jackets tend to have a bright red 'pull here' toggle.

 

Now I'm going to have to pull you up on a technical point KM, yes VHF's can have limited range and be obstructed for line of sight. But how does a PLB have limited range? you will be confusing our viewers at home. PLB's as EPIRBs work via satellite. They need a clear view of the sky, which normally isn't a problem on the water. If your in a canyon or deep steep sided valley they can be slow to pick up satellites. If your already underwater, i.e. a submarine, then they wont work. Perhaps if you are in a global location where there aren't any satellites, i.e. Antarctica, they may be a bit slow, but in that situation a parachute wouldn't work either.

 

And no I'm not taking the piss, can you quote an account or news article where a flare was actually used fora rescue? I've given you two referenced accounts of flares being as useful as tits on a bull. They only stories of flares 'working' I'm aware of have all been fulse alarms.

 

Now, 83% of my flares only work at night. I do almost all of my boating in daylight. A flare only works if someone is looking during the 30 odd seconds its going off, and that person knows what they are looking at, and that person has a means of either performing a rescue, or calling for help, and that person has a vague idea how to record your location.

 

On a night like tonight, I could go to a large number of normally popular spots in the Hauraki Gulf and let off all of my flares, I may or may not get rescued. I could hope that someone is on the back side of Tiri and just felt like going out for a smoke at the same time I let off a flare, assuming there is anyone staying on the back side of Tiri, or Port Jackson, or Bostaquet Bay, or any number of locations I may have a cluster in.

Or I could activate my PLB, have an alarm and my position pop up at the MRCC (or what ever agency it is) and have rescue assets dispatched promptly to home in on my homing signal. 

 

I'd far prefer to spend my safety dollars on other items than flares. But as this little thread started on a comment on DSC and how NZ is in the dark ages, I'll need to stay with flares, aldis signaling lights, kerosene pressure lanterns for nav lights, sextants, towed logs, lead lines, trylene sails and hemp ropes. 

 

Time and technology moves on...

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It would appear I'm going to need to eat some humble pie.

But not in response to KM's post  ;-)

 

I'll pre-face this by saying I haven't been doing any competitive racing for a good five years, (based on the fact my oldest is about to turn five). Some may argue I've never done any 'competitive racing' that I'd direct you to the handicapper on that argument...

 

Since my flares last expired and needed replacing, the Yachting NZ Safety regulations have updated from 2013-16 to 2017-20. Full credit to Yachting NZ (maybe they were listening to my whining) - they have rationalised the number and type of flares required to be carried.

 

Where clause 18.7 (Flares) used to have parts:

a,

b,

c,

d,

e,

f, and

g

 

Clause 18.7 now only has parts:

a, and 

b

 

The main change is there is now no requirement to carry rocket flares. While this does mean I wont be able to welcome KM into Arkles Bay anymore, it does halve the cost of replacing expired flares.

 

For Cat 3, the requirements were:

2 red rockets

2 red handhelds

1 orange smoke

1 white handheld (or a good spotlight)

 

Now it is:

2 red handhelds

2 orange smokes

 

The cost has gone from $300 to $155.

The big saving is in removing the red rockets, which I believe are by far the most dangerous flare for personal injury for screw-ups while handling. Further, as I (and a vast majority of people) do the majority of boating during daylight, the extra orange smoke I think is not bad thinking.

 

So full credit to Yachting NZ on rationalising the flare requirements and halving the cost of replacement. I'm off down the road to buy a new set of flares.

 

And Beccara, absolutely agree, you always need a plan B, and at $51.67 / year the Cat 3 flares are now a more cost effective back up to the other safety devices.

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You need to brush up on your knowledge of rescue beacons a bit there fella. Start with the differences between  PLBs and EPRIBs. Then  suss what is being sold. The NZ Government checked me on who, what, when and etc in a big way last April and in a smaller way late November. As I interact with rescue beacons a fair bit (twice a week) I have to have a big check every 5 and a smaller every 2 years.

 

 

I'm not aware of any difference in range between the two. Am I wrong or misinterpreted something?:

 

From eprib.com:

 

The differences between EPIRBs and PLBs

edited_group_shot2.jpgPersonal Location Beacons work in exactly the same way as EPIRBs by sending a coded message on the 406 MHz distress frequency which is relayed via the Cospas-Sarsat global satellite system.

However, there are a number of differences between them. PLBs are designed to be carried on the person so they are much smaller, some such as the Fast find are not much larger than the size of a mobile phone. PLBs are designed to be used anywhere in the world, on the sea and also on land. Some don't float but may come with an additional floatational sleeve which they should be carried in.

PLBs, once activated, will transmit for a minimum of 24 hours; while the battery life on an EPIRB is at least double (a minimum of 48 hours). An EPIRB is registered to a vessel, whereas a PLB is registered to a person. This means that if you are crewing a yacht and you switch to a new yacht the plb is still correctly registered; however, if you have an EPIRB and buy a new yacht you will need to re-register it when installing in your new boat. EPIRB PLB

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OK, in the interest of not putting newbies in an unsafe place we need to note here you are talking close inshore emergencies only and in waters used by many boats. I'm talking very generally so that could be in Issy Bay or the middle of the Pacific and where there maybe nothing nor no one. That's worth noting as there can be significant differences.

 

You need to brush up on your knowledge of rescue beacons a bit there fella. Start with the differences between  PLBs and EPRIBs. Then  suss what is being sold. The NZ Government checked me on who, what, when and etc in a big way last April and in a smaller way late November. As I interact with rescue beacons a fair bit (twice a week) I have to have a big check every 5 and a smaller every 2 years.

 

Yes I'm talking primarily the Hauraki Gulf and occasionally coastal Northern NZ, up to the BoI etc.

 

I've moved to the PLB as I'm primary doing short handed sailing. I wear my PLB on me at all times (its small enough to). I believe this is far more beneficial than having the fixed EPIRB downstairs in the event I go for a swim. This also meets the requirements of single handed racing to 'self initiate a rescue if you go swimming' - which I think is a good thing if racing or not. 

We have two PLB's, both of which are GPS enabled. Our old EPIRB was not GPS enabled and we chose not to replace it in favour of 2 x GPS enabled PLB's. 

 

The main difference with the PLB is it does not float, and the aerial must be pointed at the sky to work - which is possibly what you are getting at KM - point taken. The EPIRB will float and work by itself. My PLB is attached with a lanyard to a loop in the pocket I keep it in. If I happen to be using it, it will become more precious than Gollums stone.

The other difference is the battery life, 24 hrs v 48 hr. For the type of sailing and location I'm in, that is not a consideration. If I were going any further afield with my boat, yes I would get a new GPS enabled EPIRB as well, and consider possibly a cat 1 one with auto deployment.

 

With reference to your two photos, yes laser flares don't work during the day. Yes red handhelds do give off plenty of white smoke, but nowhere near as good as an orange smoke. The point I'm working on here is the advent of new technology, and there is a very good one for the fighter-pilot sitting in his raft in that bottom photo.

 

Way back when I starting racing in the UK, my skipper kept 8 red mini flares in his LJ. He was ex Royal Dragoon Guards so enjoyed keeping explosives on his person. They were usually soaked but he was paranoid about going overboard and us not being able to find him again. Now you can get personal AIS beacons that auto-deploy on your LJ, raise an alarm onboard and pop up on your chart plotter (or anyone else with AIS). These have proven pivotal in saving MOB's in high seas in the Clipper race.

 

Your jet fighter pilot was lucky it was a calm sunny training day in that photo, he could see the helo and knew it was a good time to deploy his only orange smoke. It would be a shame if he got his timing wrong, blew his smoke to early, or missed the helo cause he was too paranoid about saving his smoke.

 

I'd far prefer to have a personal AIS beacon auto-deploy on my LJ than carry 8 mini red flares like my old ex-Army skipper. The AIS is going to be more reliable and cover a wider range of scenario's. That is an example of technology changing. I still think there is a place for some flares, and as per my other post acknowledge the changes in requirements and reduced cost of Cat 3 flares. In that scenario, $300 for flares for 3 years doesn't sound as good as $500 for an AIS beacon for 7 years. Since the costs have dropped, $155 flares for 3 years is more palatable.

 

PS, I sure hope you aren't downstairs taking a dump when I let off my valuable flares  ;-)

 

and just for the record, that wasn't me at Arkles, I let my flares off after midnight when no-one is watching, sun-set is such a stupid time to do it...

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Not all PLB's are able to chat to satellites so when shopping beware of that but I suspect most will sooner rather than later. Some also don't have 121.5 so while the 406 is good to say 'Oui, I'm around here' one with 121.5 will allow SAR, generally searching aircraft, to narrow the search considerably which is why aircraft beacons tend to be 121.5 only, better faster pinpointing. Around the gulf any is fine but if you are going deeper then all are still OK but you'll have to hope an aircraft is overhead, +/-, when you activate some of them, they will pick up the 121.5 signal and then action something.

 

Do you have any examples of PLB's that don't have enough range to reach satellites? Given that the basic operation is to use 406 MHz to communicate with COSPAS/SARSAT, it'd be standard consumer gurantees stuff if they didn't.

Your not getting mixed up with all the bullshit WiFi MOB devices and sat-phone style text alert systems are you?

 

Your comment on the expiry dates is interesting, and fairly much reinforces why i get grumpy when I have to go buy new flares.

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PLB's don't tend to have antennas compared to  EPIRBS and will likely have either a PCB trace antenna or ceramic chip antenna mounted on the PCB. Most PLB's I've seen are 406/121.5mhz with GPS and run at 5w TX power on the 406 side just like the EPIRBS

 

This means PLB's are a lot more sensitive to obstructions of the sky, Lighting one up inside is going to impact GPS accuracy and the ability for the 406 signal to reach space which may delay alerting SAR or give them a large search area to work with.

 

One difference I haven't had a chance to talk to the RCCNZ guys about is if a PLB and a signal in the water picked up would a SAR operation expecting 1 person deploy different resources than an EPIRB indicating a boat is in distress with unknown POB. This would be ok for single-handed boats but if 3 or 4 people go down and get split up it may/may not delay getting additional SAR assets involved.

 

Of course if money was no barrier i'd chuck and auto EPIRB in the boat and a PLB on every jacket (Looking forward to PLB/AIS/DSC intergrated units hitting the market)

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Hay KM,

Where do you get your mini orange smokes from and how much are they?

 

And would they meet the requirements of "self initiating a rescue" for a single handed as per the SI's of that single handed series?

 

Certainly be a useful back up to the PLB in that situation. Be interesting if they meet the SI's by themselves.

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id just like to re-iterate that a PLB, even in the Gulf, MAY take as much as  5 hours before rescue can get to you. If its cold, or you dont have floatation, that may well be too long. This info is direct from the rescue services.

I too am awaiting the AISSART/PLB/DSC combo units. I've not seen one released to market yet...

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id just like to re-iterate that a PLB, even in the Gulf, MAY take as much as  5 hours before rescue can get to you. If its cold, or you dont have floatation, that may well be too long. This info is direct from the rescue services.

I too am awaiting the AISSART/PLB/DSC combo units. I've not seen one released to market yet...

 

Why's that? It looks like the performance of a 406 / 121.5 with GPS and an aerial would be very similar to an EPIRB with battery power being the main issue. My understanding is that once it's obtained a GPS position, that info with the unique ID is in the hands of the RCCCNZ pretty quickly.

 

If the vessel you've fallen off is still manned and able to repsond, hopefully they're hearing the Mayday relay on 16 and can do so using the lat and long provided by the RCCCNZ. If they aren't able to respond then yes you're going to have to wait for whoever is going to actually pull you out of the water to get there. 

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id just like to re-iterate that a PLB, even in the Gulf, MAY take as much as  5 hours before rescue can get to you. If its cold, or you dont have floatation, that may well be too long. This info is direct from the rescue services.

I too am awaiting the AISSART/PLB/DSC combo units. I've not seen one released to market yet...

Would that be the 'may' as in 'all best endeavors but we wont guarantee anything'?

 

The most recent example, Waimanu, had a C 130 overhead in five hours, out in the big blue, while his flares failed to raise the ship that was passing while he was sinking.

 

It would be interesting to know, based on the modern gear (not the 10 year or 20 year old stats) what the time is, with a GPS enabled unit, for a signal to pop up at the MRCC, the time to process that signal, check registration of the unit, phone some out of date random contacts, decide its a legit alarm and then deploy an asset or two.

 

No single system is perfect, but some systems have a wider range of application than others.

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There is some information here on response times, in the table comparing GPS and non-GPS models:

http://beacons.org.nz/FAQs.aspx#What%20type

 

Certainly the non-GPS models take a while to get a fix, 90mins for first orbiting satellite then  need additional satellites, and it states a fix is needed before rescue assets can be dispatched.

 

All it says about GPS enabled is the signal is detected by satellites within seconds. It does go on about registering your EPIRB / PLB to save time.

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Something to remember please everyone. Flares are dated for YNZ purposes, dated way shorter than there effective life span, no idea why but probably the same silly sh*t that infests too much of things marine. It's probably based off stuff many many years ago when flares were weaved from grass and steam powered. But now they are made so much better and better packed they last for ages so take them with you, no one has ever complained they had too many flares when they got in trouble. But if you decide you don't want to then please don't dump them. Rescue services can use them to help at carnage scenes to guide in helicopters and the like. If you have any you don't want any longer contact Jon here on Crew or me and we can help them go to a second life which may very well save peoples lives. Maybe try Crews Chris as well, being a ex Ambo he'll probably know a good cause that would like them as well. Note here I mean handhelds only, firing chutes up ways may have the chopper pilot discussing your ancestors in a  somewhat derogatory manner.

 

On that note I took a big bunch of my very expired rockets and some smoke flares (all dated to expire between early 1990's and 2000's!!) down to the new Fire Shop on Wairau road thinking they could use them as described above. I kept some of the expired orange and white smoke jobbies for my kids to have a play with so they were a bit familiar with how to use them should the need ever arise. 

The friendly fire officer at the counter said something to the effect of "these are dangerous goods and we don't want/cant have them here" and I quoted KM as saying they may be useful. The guy then went and got the fire chief and he said all they would do is put them in a safe box outside somewhere and call the Council hazardous waste guy to come and get them. 

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In whangarei the ministry of defense contracts someone to collect the expired flares from the Chandler at no charge or paperwork. In fact it is actively encouraged to drop them there rather than anywhere else.

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Meet the Regs? First thought was does it matter as who is checking. I'd think they are probably a bit small or we'd see them in marine like places, something we don't. About the only time I can think of seeing any in use is aviation related which could all be due to having other systems and weight/space related.

I actually meant - does a mini orange smoke flare meet the requirements of the Sailing Instructions of the single handed series (Vining Single Handed, formally Sail IQ / Solo IQ) for self initiating a rescue. 

I think they list examples as a PLB or a handheld VHF.

I find a hand held VHF too hard to carry on my person, due to them always having aerials that catch on things or get you in the ribs.

I'm thinking a non-solas orange flare, smaller in size and amount of smoke than the standard oranges flares, so I can keep it in my LJ or a pocket in my sailing clothes.

If they aren't commercially available the question doesn't really matter, but would be handy to attract attention from fellow racers as opposed to the PLB process (yes I know you want to say 'told you so' - you can if these mini's are commercially available)

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Time - yep the GPS units , PLB or EPIRB, should be a few seconds/mins to the rescue center. Form there, an operator looks at the system, checks the contact numbers. calls them. Then, report goes to the police, they are in charge in NZ territory. They decide what assets are available, contact them and deploy. It may be a chopper, it may be a CG vessel, or Police vessel. Depends exactly where and when - whats available, etc. It its a boat, say a coastguard unit during the week, they are paged, meet at the boat, then deploy. If your in the outer gulf, and Westpac are busy, it can be hours before anyone turns up on scene. Meantime, the boat 1 nm away may not be aware of your issue, and the RCC likely dont know that there is a boat nearby. Thats also part of the reason that I run an AIS transponder - the RCC knows where we are....

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