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Is it worth to the VHF radio have DSC function. Anyone use it?


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Time - yep the GPS units , PLB or EPIRB, should be a few seconds/mins to the rescue center. Form there, an operator looks at the system, checks the contact numbers. calls them. Then, report goes to the police, they are in charge in NZ territory. They decide what assets are available, contact them and deploy. It may be a chopper, it may be a CG vessel, or Police vessel. Depends exactly where and when - whats available, etc. It its a boat, say a coastguard unit during the week, they are paged, meet at the boat, then deploy. If your in the outer gulf, and Westpac are busy, it can be hours before anyone turns up on scene. Meantime, the boat 1 nm away may not be aware of your issue, and the RCC likely dont know that there is a boat nearby. Thats also part of the reason that I run an AIS transponder - the RCC knows where we are....

Actually if a beacon is involved, it becomes a "Category 2" SAR incident and as such, the RCCCNZ is the lead agency and they can task assets without referring to the police. That said, I would imagine they would work together when appropriate for the best outcome. Regardless, the information they have is gold. An accurate position (down to meters at a given time if not continuously updated) and a very good idea of what they are looking for. 

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Please keep in mind that the only GeoSAR bird covering NZ and the waters around it is GOES-15 and that is about 22deg elevation off the horizion at a bearing of 60deg true.

 

Thankfully in the past 2 years MEOSAR birds have come online and should provide coverage but they too will not be "straight up" but rather slowly arcing across the sky, MEOSAR will also run the messages down to Canberra not NZ directly unless our MEOLUT has come online.  The 2nd gen beacons also have better GPS requirements ( I think it's now sub-100m within 5min of power up)

 

Here's a NZ based example of the improvments made by MEOSAR:

 

SiMFhsy.png

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Yes we need your expired flares

Handheld but I can dispose of your para’s also

PM or text me and I’ll tell you where to leave them on my boat at Westhaven or if your elsewhere arrange to collect

We use them as a landing aid for the big red and yellow bird

In town they don’t want them as the Westpac doesn’t respond but it the real NZ often the people we are assisting aren’t next to the big red truck or if they are it’s a good way to direct the red bird to the landing spot which is often 100’s of metres away in a paddock.

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It would appear I'm going to need to eat some humble pie.

But not in response to KM's post  ;-)

 

I'll pre-face this by saying I haven't been doing any competitive racing for a good five years, (based on the fact my oldest is about to turn five). Some may argue I've never done any 'competitive racing' that I'd direct you to the handicapper on that argument...

 

Since my flares last expired and needed replacing, the Yachting NZ Safety regulations have updated from 2013-16 to 2017-20. Full credit to Yachting NZ (maybe they were listening to my whining) - they have rationalised the number and type of flares required to be carried.

 

Where clause 18.7 (Flares) used to have parts:

a,

b,

c,

d,

e,

f, and

g

 

Clause 18.7 now only has parts:

a, and 

b

 

The main change is there is now no requirement to carry rocket flares. While this does mean I wont be able to welcome KM into Arkles Bay anymore, it does halve the cost of replacing expired flares.

 

For Cat 3, the requirements were:

2 red rockets

2 red handhelds

1 orange smoke

1 white handheld (or a good spotlight)

 

Now it is:

2 red handhelds

2 orange smokes

 

The cost has gone from $300 to $155.

The big saving is in removing the red rockets, which I believe are by far the most dangerous flare for personal injury for screw-ups while handling. Further, as I (and a vast majority of people) do the majority of boating during daylight, the extra orange smoke I think is not bad thinking.

 

So full credit to Yachting NZ on rationalising the flare requirements and halving the cost of replacement. I'm off down the road to buy a new set of flares.

 

And Beccara, absolutely agree, you always need a plan B, and at $51.67 / year the Cat 3 flares are now a more cost effective back up to the other safety devices.

I have a problem with what ynz have agreed to regarding no parachutes only needing red hand held. A parachute goes up how many hundreds of feet?and can be seen what 2 or 3 mile(I have no idea)a red hand held at night produces a glow at sea level and when in seaway effectiveness is reduced. very rarely get in distress in a calm sea,so what I am thinking 2 to 3 miles off (say between tiri/rakino)easterly 30 knts 1.5m swell vhf kaput,would it be visible from browns bay beach??

 

 

Now back to vhf

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Found the answers to my own question via MNZ

 

  • Red handheld flares are effective during the day and night as they are very bright, burn for up to 60 seconds and are visible from aircraft
  • Red parachute or rocket flares are capable of attracting attention in daylight (up to 10 miles) and at night (up to 40 miles). The flare is launched up to 300m and burns for 40–60 seconds as it descends slowly under a parachute.
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If you've never launched a red rocket before, try it,

Then try it in 30 knts. See if you can get it up to 300m, or see if it goes sideways faster than a sidewinder missile.

 

The YNZ regulations don't stop you carrying red rockets. You can carry them if you think there is a benefit. But now guys doing a Cat 5 race (and 4 and 3) don't need to spend the $160 on them.

 

And if you follow the regs, you should have a base mounted VHF and a waterproof handheld as well....

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If you've never launched a red rocket before, try it,

Then try it in 30 knts. See if you can get it up to 300m, or see if it goes sideways faster than a sidewinder missile.

 

The YNZ regulations don't stop you carrying red rockets. You can carry them if you think there is a benefit. But now guys doing a Cat 5 race (and 4 and 3) don't need to spend the $160 on them.

 

And if you follow the regs, you should have a base mounted VHF and a waterproof handheld as well....

 I can see where YNZ is coming from by trying to make it simple/cheaper in the hope there is more competitors.  

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 I can see where YNZ is coming from by trying to make it simple/cheaper in the hope there is more competitors.  

That, and I think with the improving reliability and increasing number of electronic options, rocket flares aren't nearly as important as they used to be.

 

The times, they are a changing...

 

We don't use sextants, hand bearing compasses (but probably should) kerosene lanterns or tyrelene sails anymore. They've all be replaced by modern equivalents.

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Given the US navy's track record of smacking into big ships and killing their own crew through outright incompetence, I wouldn't use that example to advance any points you want to make.

 

But that aside, yes I have a sextant, and have a vague idea how to use it. It doesn't expire every three years....

 

So along with your top shelf lithium batteries and super efficient Flexi solar panels, are you running kerosene Nav lights?

 

Or some of those modern LED ones?

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The problem I've got now KM, is I actually agree with you.

Chart plotters in-particular breed a blind reliance on gadgets, and remove any sense of normal positional awareness. This is the sort of awareness that alerts you that something may not be quiet right.

Having sufficient ability to determine how strong and what direction a current is based on 'error's' in other nav methods is fascinating, i.e. sextant fixing being slightly out, being able to steer a straight compass course, and recording the log, all with sufficient confidence to know if the position fixes are out, it must be a current and not an operator error.

 

Many years ago in a far away land I was sitting a particular skippers qualification. We had to do 'blind nav' exercises, where we sat downstairs while the crew sailed the boat, we were allowed speed through the water, compass heading and depth (and a chart) and we had to get from our last known position to a safe location and visually confirm it, i.e. by sailing up to a channel marker of bouy. It was effectively a fog or lectronic shut down exercise. That really tests your ability, and confidence in finding where you are again. 

That same course had 'motor failure' exercises too. The instructor would randomly kill the motor when the skipper wasn't looking. He did it once in a busy, narrow shipping channel with a ferry coming in. That makes you think on your feet too...

 

Being a bit old fashioned, I've got all my waypoints marked on a paper chart. In the cockpit we have a chart plotter, but also a handheld GPS. Its on mains power normally, but has internal battery back up. All the waypoints on the chart are in the handheld, so its easy to get range and bearing to a known location. This gives reasonable positional awareness, i.e. we can see where we are on the paper chart as well as the chart plotter. Great for kids to look at by the way. Having the paper chart handy means its straight forward to confirm a position with a hand bearing compass should Kim Jung Ung take out all of the GPS satellites. And the kids can find the different posts and bouys on the chart and then watch them as we sail buy.

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Well done for doing that but you should have done it before yesterday.

You do realise VHF and PLB have limited, at times very limited range? Often less than a parachute would.

 

And if you sink by me I'd go for a flare first. It's rare to have the VHF on and I have no ability to pick up a PLB but I do have good eyes and know what a flare looks like.

 

Hmmmm.... You are a fast runner. I am impressed at how fast you disappeared when the cop car arrived ;)

 

Are you serious? You have never seen any of the many news articles, comments etc about 'a flare being sited', surly you're just taking the piss.

 

When you popped that one at Arkles within seconds the VHF was alive with calls about it as were the land lines to CG. So much so it took me close to 4 minutes to break in and tell them all you'd been drinking and were doing a safety check. But I was only on a handheld in Arkles so reception wasn't legend which wouldn't helped

 

So just for the record, KM was advocating the use of flares through this thread. I was advocating the use of electronic devices such as PLB's or EPIRB's.

Current story here of a father and daughter who's launch broke down, on Friday, spent two nights drifting at sea, including Saturday which was awful weather.

The father "shot off some flares, but no one saw them".

 

The Coastguard air wing, an Airforce P3 Orion and a number of boats were searching for this boat. They were found visually in daylight.

 

Wonder if they would have been found and rescued last Friday had they used an EPIRB or PLB?

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/103465317/search-continues-for-fishermen-missing-off-great-barrier-island-since-friday

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I may have mentioned this elsewhere...but anyway..

A while a go we did a serious test of flares versus electronic flares..

We used two vessels at different distances off shore and a heap of shore based "posts" spread for many miles to record what they saw.

Fist thing...the electronic ones have a ways to go ..

Second the old school flares could be seen by the posts..

Third thing...

Melbourne is a very big city with a lot of people...and a lot of those people live and work around Port Phillip Bay..

Not a single report was received by the emergency services of a flare ....

But yet it was obviously seen by our shore based posts......

 

Get an EPIRB and a PLB as well if you can !!

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DSC radios are a pain in the arse and are infact DANGEROUS. Let me explain. DSC still has not been officially accepted in NZ so while CG might have it , its not to be relied upon. The worst is, if your radio does not have a GPS buit in or you don't supply it with position data, the bloody thing will sound a series of annoying beeps and will continue to do so at regular intervals until its gets a gps fix..RIGHT OVER ANY INCOMING TRANSMISSION! Thats right, whoever's talking to you gets wiped out, and they call that a safety feature! Forget watch keeping at night with that going. It can not be turned off..unless you are a radio tech and know what you are doing! hehehe..

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Im no radio tech, but it’s pretty basic simple to to turn off that beeping, just go into menu and select the gps simulate function.

 

They are not dangerous, only the un-educated operator makes it dangerous.

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What makes of DSC equipped VHF sets cause this issue? My DSC equipped Uniden (the second one I've had), has never had this problem.

 

I was a marine electronics officer back in the late 1970's when DSC was starting to be fitted to ships, and used by coast stations. Thought it was great then, it's infinitely more versatile and useful these days. As Kiwifish says, you need to know how to use the gear you have.

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It is not a problem, its incorrect setup/install. As almost all the VHF sets now have DSC, as its a requirement in the USA, they;

 

  1. MUST have a programmed MMSI number
  2. MUST have a valid GPS fix - either internal or external depending on model.

Read the manual, and some radios,(often only if the location is set to outside of USA), can turn off the DSC/MMS/GPS requirement, or, better still, provide the radio with what its asking for, and the alarms will cease.

 

The units alarm as they cannot be relied upon for DSC safety without that data, and in the market they are primarily designed for, its compulsory.

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Im no radio tech, but it’s pretty basic simple to to turn off that beeping, just go into menu and select the gps simulate function.

 

They are not dangerous, only the un-educated operator makes it dangerous.

True, you are no radio tech? Its a requirement that all VHF marine transceivers have a failed gps position alarm:

 

""Subject: UNIDEN Question Update : W400167-030915:: W400167-030915

To Thomas 

Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2015, 6:49 AM

 

Our Solution:

 

Thank you for using our system.

 

Dear valued Uniden customer, Unfortunately, there is no way to disable the No GPS alarm. It is on there so that in case of distress, it would be able to broadcast your coordinates. Since it is considered a safety feature, it is unable to be disabled.

Thank you for contacting Uniden!""

 

Rang Lusty Blundel in the shock that I have got this wrong and they are about to confirm it with an email I will post here.

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