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Damn the Rules, Rocna Inventor doing the NW Passage


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Actually the problem is that he DID make a comment, just like you are and the Marin guy that started plus those that support it by downvoting anyone calling it out. There is a place for this toxic posturing, its called small talk. How about all the political commentators, conspiracy theorists, ZB aficionados et al politely retire to their own section and duke it out there. Its always the same players, (and their enablers) the same opinions and the same nasty culture and result no matter the subject. In this case the discussion was about a very experienced NZ yachtie, sailing through waters controlled by another country under covid restrictions when you lot dropped in with your ugly little bunfight.

On that, I admire the practicality and seamanship of the  man- its a tough journey with a small window etc etc BUT and its a giant but, he is doing against the express wishes of the Canadian govt so that sends a message and not a particularly good one about all involved. Ultimately one could take the view that he's a greedy selfish man, greedy for his conquests, another notch on his belt, greedy for the experience as if he cant wait or do something else, and selfish because of the potential fallout and consequences for others who may wish to follow behind with hardened rules etc. 

TBH, I dont really know what to say on here about him as I am a bit of a rebel about govt overreach but if some cruiser announces their intention to land on the one of the NZ's offshore sanctuary  Islands Im pretty sure we would all be jumping up and down.

 

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I've reported this post. Adopting the language of the extreme right to describe people who support the rule of law sets a dangerous precedent for this forum. 

I'm getting offended by the amount of offense being taken around here. No one is calling anyone a w^&#$@r, a c**t or a fuckwit, which would be highly offensive. The OP is ju

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2 hours ago, Tamure said:

Actually the problem is that he DID make a comment, just like you are and the Marin guy that started plus those that support it by downvoting anyone calling it out. There is a place for this toxic posturing, its called small talk. How about all the political commentators, conspiracy theorists, ZB aficionados et al politely retire to their own section and duke it out there. Its always the same players, (and their enablers) the same opinions and the same nasty culture and result no matter the subject. In this case the discussion was about a very experienced NZ yachtie, sailing through waters controlled by another country under covid restrictions when you lot dropped in with your ugly little bunfight.

Come now Tamure, we don't need hall monitors and all ;-)

But other than that, concerningly, I actually agree with you.

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3 hours ago, Tamure said:

TBH, I dont really know what to say on here about him as I am a bit of a rebel about govt overreach but if some cruiser announces their intention to land on the one of the NZ's offshore sanctuary  Islands Im pretty sure we would all be jumping up and down. 

This is kind of comparing apples and oranges. The NW passage is not internationally recognised as Canadian internal waters and is not a land mass. NZ sanctuary islands are not a waterway connecting two regions and are an isolated land mass that provide no access to any other land mass.

A better analogy might be, would NZers be jumping up and down because a ship wanted to transit the Cook Strait on it's way from South America to Australia without permits/permission.  And even that's not great because the Cook Strait is recognised as NZ terrority. 

Would the boating community be upset, if Turkey decided, that due to Covid restrictions, the right of innocent passage no longer applied to the Bosporus Strait? (also not a good analogy because it has been officially recognised). 

To help know "what to say" about Pete Smith and this transit, you have to form an educated opinion about Canada's legal claim to the NW passage and decide if the right to innocent passage does or does not apply to him. 

Legal Article: The Northwest Passage - What is its status under the international law of the sea?

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To add to Tamure's excellent post it's worth recalling that the notion that there is an orderly system which refugees MUST follow when applying is another part of the nasty rightwing meme factory. Wheels promoted the notion in his post and I hope it was just an error in understanding on his behalf and not a part of his belief system. These are important matters and it's essential that we don't make such fundamental errors in discussing them and in treating people humanely and treating them in accordance with our legal obligations. NZ is a tiny island stuck at the far end of the world; if we are to survive and prosper we need to promote a rules-based system of international law in cooperation with other like-minded polities, not tear it down according to the political whim of the day.

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I guess I am saying that I am not knowledgeable about the jurisdiction issues, but only offer a pathetically weak opinion based on reading a few Canadian news sites and my general ignorance. On a purely practical level there is not much of an issue because

  1. He is extremely unlikely to have or carry covid
  2. His intention to pass through without making landfall
  3. His reputation and experience

But on a political level where US citizen are flouting Canadian sovereignty, where the territory is disputed etc its complex

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1 hour ago, Tamure said:

.........

  1. His intention to pass through without making landfall

 

Yes, but  I think he is technically making a 'Landfall' if he is anchoring on Canadian soil.  At the CAN/US  border along the strait of Juan de Fuca, and in the Rosario Strait... I believe that in normal (non-Covid) times that an American can transit, but is not allowed to lay anchor.    The act of putting down an anchor has been regarded by other countries (that we have had to enter) as being illegal until a formal entry is conducted. 

I might tend to view this differently if he was making a non-stop passage, but because I have read that he is anchoring and if true, the guy is violating Canadian Law.

This is also a big deal for Canada because this will become a passage for oil tankers thru a pristine Canadian wilderness area. Just think about what has happened this August with the oil tanker running aground in Mauritius do to operator error and a desire to get closer to land for the crew to use their cell phones!

 

Edited by 2flit
Correcting authenticity on "anchoring"
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On 31/08/2020 at 6:48 AM, grantmc said:

Just thought that to try and keep the thread on track, and perhaps add a little sanity, here's a reminder of the Kiwis who've completed a successful NW passage:
2000    Evohe (25m yacht)    Stephen Kafka
2009    Tyhina (10.4m yacht)    Peter Elliot
2010    Astral Express (12.5m yacht)    Graeme Kendall single handed over two seasons
2011    Kotuku (12m yacht)    Ian Douglass
2012    Tokimata (13m yacht)    Peter Garden
2017    Larissa (13.7m cutter)    Mark Domney
2017    Tiama (15.2m skoop)    Hank Haazen

Just to add Australia have had only 6 successes including 3 by Roger Wallis (Philos in 2012 and again 2014, then in 2017 on Abel Tasman).

Earlier I listed the above table of New Zealand successes. 
I am stunned and amazed that no one on the forum has picked up on my error.
Till now some members have been so quick to point and scream at my occasional mistakes and stumbles. 

But anyway as you'll all know, Peter Elliott is of course a true Aussie battler.
Whilst his boat Typhina was built in France, Peter flagged her as Australian shortly after buying her off a French family who'd lived on her for 20 odd years. A link to his fascinating web site that tells the story of their two season NW Passage http://www.tyhina.com/index.html 

So that makes the score Aussies 7 and Kiwis 6, so we really need Pete Evans to do the business and at least equal the score.

One last, somewhat unrelated point:
I've always been impressed to find that no matter how remote, or how vicious the weather, there are inevitably people living in the vicinity that sail there on a regular basis. An example is the guy in Greenland who bought Astral Express from Graeme Kendall after he'd completed the NW Passage but found it was too late late for his circumnavigation. The following season, Peter 'borrowed' the boat back to complete his project. The guy in Greenland basically just bought the boat hoping to win a few more round the cans races at his local yacht club in Greenland.

Peter Elliott has a similar story about Pat Semotiak, the guy that 'looked after' Typhina over the long cold Artic Winter in Nome. Here's an extract from the log that again demonstrates  what may be so difficult a place for us to comprehend is just someone else's 'normal':  'We are now back in Melbourne after a successful summer of sailing. Tyhina waits patiently for us under the watchful eye of our friend Pat Hahn. We met Pat through Peter Semotiak our ice and weather router. Upon hearing of our arrival in Nome harbour Pat came down to the boat and invited us back to his house to for lunch and a long overdue shower. ... Pat grew up in Nome and is also a Northwest Passage maker, only he did it in an umiak (an open walrus skinned boat) in the late 70's with much more ice and far less support. He has worked, fished, skied, hiked and sledded around Nome all his life ...'.
And needless to say Pat Semotiak isn't credited as having traversed the North West Passage.

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54 minutes ago, 2flit said:

... This is also a big deal for Canada because this will become a passage for oil tankers thru a pristine Canadian wilderness area. Just think about what has happened this August with the oil tanker running aground in Mauritius due to operator error and a desire to get closer to land for the crew to use their cell phones!

Mauritius is too far away to be relevant.
The Exxon Valdez disaster brings the point home in a more germane way me thinks.

Until Covid, there'd been considerable concern about cruise liners doing the trip, and that sooner or latter a ship would founder and thousands of people would need evacuation. Something that the area doesn't have the capability to do. 

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