Rules Question

[ballystick 72]

That's a good website, it really makes you look at the small details. The situation supplied didn't apply to the original question. It really shows how tricky applying rules to all situations. I don't think I'll be a judge any time soon, but I'll keep at it and with debate such as this it must improve your rules understanding, thanks AJ

[double n 0]

I guess I will put my two cents worth. I was the "offending" driver and incidentally not the normal driver who was not on the boat. You guys had a great leg and leading the fleet and were clear in front all the way up the beat, we had to much rag and staggered along behind. At the top end the wind softened and we got back some. You tacked about 150m out onto the layline which made you vunerable as you then had no options. We came in on port about 50m out. We could not cross you and didnt want to anyway. We tacked under you as we would have hit had we carried on. By your own admission earlier in the thread you bore down on us for whatever reason. The prudent thing would have been to say "bugger" but sit on our hip and round right on our tail and then attack us down wind. But the result of you crossing under our stern ,which shows we werent going to hit, was that you didnt make the mark and ended up having a discussion with the big boat charging in.

Later in the leg we had the little whoopsy shown in wednesday pics and you got back in front.Then on the reach into the last mark we stayed up high out of the tide you straight lined more and we caught up. We then came in on a hotter angle with more boat speed. The red mist must have been still working so you hardened up to squeeze us up and you rounded the mark with mm to spare we didnt even comment but just ducked under your stern with lots more boatspeed ,as your squeezing got you almost stopped, we passed to leeward and gassed you and that manouver took you from 2nd to 4th place.

I am very happy to go to the room to discuss my actions and dont believe we broke any rules. When I race Im trying to win not to be nice to people. I will not gift you a win you have to work for it. PM if you want to discuss.

[Guest Rocket]

I must be missing something - sounds like the guy coming in on port is racing and playing entirely by the rules and the guy on starboard is bitching for no apparent reason. Err if ya don't like other boats messing you around take up some other sport - half the game is to never miss a chance to mess with the guy behind - why waste a tack?

 

I would land you even if it wasn't a layline - but on a layline absolutely normal? Funny comments as in "funny peculiar....

[double n 0]

Ballystick did PM me we had a very civilized discussion, all is now good in the land of "Rena".

[AJ Oliver 154]

At the risk of complicating things, seems to me that there are amibguous situations at mark roundings. (Full disclosure - I am by no means an authority on the RRS. Perhaps a judge or two could weigh in here . . )

 

In the first example (just below) the port tacker has rights, but apparently only because starborad has overstood.

 

http://game.finckh.net/situat/tit_gbr/s63_e.htm

 

In the second example (again, just below), the port tacker fouls starboard, even though port apparently completes his/her tack in front of S, because S has to sail above close hauled due to the speed differential.

 

http://game.finckh.net/situat/tit_gbr/m82_e.htm

 

Moral or the story - when you're coming into the mark on port, it's pretty darn hard to tell whether you have rights or not. And how is starboard to know whether or not they have overstood? Sometimes that is tricky too.

 

The message I take away is that ambiguous situations are going to arise during many races, and the sportsmanlike thing to do is just cut each other a fair amount of slack.

 

Here is the home page for the Finckh animated rules. It's quite well done, though the English is a bit rough in spots (But way better than my pathetic German).

 

http://game.finckh.net/indexe.htm

[ballystick 72]

Those are good comments AJ

Those animations show just how many situations can change due to small variances. Possibly this illustrates an area that can be tidied up before the next ISAF rules revamp.

[Guest]

At the risk of complicating things, seems to me that there are amibguous situations at mark roundings. (Full disclosure - I am by no means an authority on the RRS. Perhaps a judge or two could weigh in here . . )

 

In the first example (just below) the port tacker has rights, but apparently only because starborad has overstood.

 

http://game.finckh.net/situat/tit_gbr/s63_e.htm

 

In the second example (again, just below), the port tacker fouls starboard, even though port apparently completes his/her tack in front of S, because S has to sail above close hauled due to the speed differential.

 

http://game.finckh.net/situat/tit_gbr/m82_e.htm

 

Moral or the story - when you're coming into the mark on port, it's pretty darn hard to tell whether you have rights or not. And how is starboard to know whether or not they have overstood? Sometimes that is tricky too.

 

The message I take away is that ambiguous situations are going to arise during many races, and the sportsmanlike thing to do is just cut each other a fair amount of slack.

 

Here is the home page for the Finckh animated rules. It's quite well done, though the English is a bit rough in spots (But way better than my pathetic German).

 

http://game.finckh.net/indexe.htm

 

It is a great site. One of the best of its type. Agree with your comments AJ that it can be a very fine line between one scenario and another. I also agree that cutting each other a bit of slack is a good idea. Having said that, if and when push comes to shove it is handy to know what the rules actually are. My comments below are given in that light...

 

With regards to the second example... the ONLY time the port tack can commit a foul by forcing the starboard tacker to sail above a close hauled course is when the port tacker completes their tack INSIDE THE ZONE, ... AND when the starboar tack boat was fetching the mark (i.e. was not going to have to tack to make it past the mark on the required side).

 

So, no one should just decide that the bush-lawyer rule is that whenever a port tack boat tacks and then subsequently makes a starboard tack boat sail above a close hauled course the port tack boat is in the wrong. That's not the case.

 

Two examples:

 

1. When the port tack boat tacks OUTSIDE the zone, then the boat that was originally the port tack boat (if clear ahead, or to leeward) can make the starboard tack boat sail above a close hauled course and it is perfectly legal.

 

2. If the starboard tack boat was not fetching the mark, then the port tack boat can tack, even inside the zone, and if the leeward boat can then luff and push the starboard tack boat above a close hauled course perfectly legally.

 

In the orignal situation that started this thread, I was going to comment at the time but decided not to. Now that I am posting I might as well.

 

When a boat tacks in front of you there are 4 distinct phases of the manouvre during which the rules that apply are different.

 

Phase 1. Port tack boat approaching starboard tack boat, including right up to but not beyond the point at which the port tack boat passes head to wind.

 

Here, rule 10 and rule 16.1 apply.

 

Rule 10 is port/starboard, meaning the port tack boat (A) must keep clear, and the starboard tack boat ( is the right of way boat.

 

Note that keep clear does NOT mean avoid contact. It means "Avoid ( i ) contact, and ( ii ) making the right of way boat have to alter course to avoid a collision".

 

Rule 16.1 restricts the way in which the right of way boat (the starboard tack boat) can alter course. If they alter course, then they must give the keep clear boat (the port tack boat) opportuity to continue keeping clear.

 

Phase 2. A is "tacking" and must keep clear. This applies from when A passes head to wind, until A completes her tack by assuming a close hauled course on starboard tack. B is the right of way boat throughout this phase.

 

Rule 13 (keep clear while tacking) and rule 16.1 apply.

 

A is still the keep clear boat, but the rule under which they are required to keep clear changes from rule 10 to rule 13. B is still restricted by rule 16.1.

 

Phase 3. A has completed their tack, and is clear ahead of B. There is no overlap (yet).

 

Who has right of way changes the instant A completes their tack by assuming a close hauled course on starboard tack. Note, their sails do not have to be trimmed to close hauled. The headsail can be completely eased for example. It is the COURSE they are steering that defines when the tack is complete.

 

A is the right of way boat under rule 12 - clear ahead/clear astern and B is now the keep clear boat. Rule 10 (port/starboard), Rule 13 (keep clear while tacking) no longer apply.

 

However, A must INITIALLY also give B opportunity to keep clear under rule 15 - boat aquiring right of way through their own actions must INITIALLY give the other boat opportunity to keep clear. B must begin altering course the moment A completes their tack. If they do so and cannot avoid A, then A has broken rule 15. If however B does not begin attempting to keep clear the moment A completes their tack then if they fail to subsequently keep clear of A they have broken rule 12.

 

A is now restrained by rule 16.1 - they can only change course in such a way that gives B an opportunity to keep clear.

 

Phase 4. Due to the speed differential B establishes an overlap.

 

At this point in time the rules change again, and depending on whether the overlap is to windward or to leeward who is the keep clear boat can change too.

 

IF the overlap is to windward (i.e A - the boat that was on port and has tacked, is TO LEEWARD of boat B - the boat that has been on starboard all along) then B remains the keep clear boat, but the rule they must keep clear under changes from rule 12 (clear ahead/claer astern) to rule 11 (windward/leeward). A is still restricted by rule 16.1.

 

If however the overlap has B to leeward of A, then B becomes the right of way boat the instant the overlap is established. A must now keep clear under rule 11 (windward/leeward). B is restricted intially by both rule 15 and rule 16.1 and may also be restricted by rule 17.1, which would mean if:

 

( a ) the overlap was established from clear astern; and

( b ) B is within 2 boatlengths to leeward of A

 

then

 

B cannot sail above a proper course.

 

Note that if A does NOT complete their tack while clear ahead, the situation is different again.

 

If B becomes overlapped during phase 2 (i.e. between when A passes head to wind and completes their tack by assuming a close hauled course on starboard tack), then

 

Firstly, if B had to alter course to avoid A, then A broke rule 13.

 

Secondly if B did not have to alter course to aoid A, but establishes a leeward overlap BEFORE A completes their tack, then:

 

( 1 ) Phase 3 never happens.

( 2 ) In Phase 4, B is not restricted by rule 17.1, (because the overlap was NOT established from clear astern). Therefore B can luff all the way to head to wind, so long as they comply with the restrictions of rules 15 and 16.1.

[Grinna 2]

OK, so why don't those links to animations work then? Are they working for everyone else?

[Guest]

Can't tell you at the moment Grinna, as I am stuck at work and finckh.net never works through work's firewall.

 

Do a google search for "finckh.net", and go in from the front page.

[Grinna 2]

OK, thanks Bardy looks like its a problem from my end. I can get to the home page but all of the links from there give me a 404 message.

[Guest]

I will check it out tonight when I get home and reply here so you know whether it's you, or the site that has the issue. (unless someone else replies having done so first)

[SloopJohnB 323]

Here's another web site.

 

http://www.ukhalsey.com/RulesQuiz/quiz_list.asp

[benny14 6]

the links and website are working for me...

[Guest]

Yep, the finckh.net links work for me too.

 

One thing that might not be immediately obvious with finckh.net... when it mentions a rule or definition (in blue text) in the answer, if you click on that blue text it will display the wording of that rule (or definiton).

[Grinna 2]

yeah, it works for me at home, but not at work. No worries, its a problem at my end.

[smithy09 50]

Great site! I'll have to get the kids onto it..