category 1 or not

[wheels 543]

So there must be a way surely of changing that. Are there any politicians or someone that are into boating that could be talked too about maybe getting this out of the hands of YNZ and into some organisation that has a face. Afterall, it has to have been put into law by someone pushing the barrow of Cat1 outside of racing requirements.

[Guest]

I dont think there is an alternative organisation and people who crave personal freedom are not into forming organisations.And you have to think before you slag off YNZ.If they say they will only act for their members then the beauracrats could say "great,we have all these people we can regulate and tax".

Maybe WOF and rego for boats?

[Guest]

I think one of the main reasons we are in this situation is the relatives of sailors in trouble.A boat is reported missing.The government estimates where it should be.They look and then they call the search off.The weepy relatives come out and cry to the media.The media do their usual thing and pressure is thereby applied to the politicians.Resulting in the search being resumed and going on and on expensively.To get a change to cat1 I think it needs to be agreed that the taxpayer will only pay for the rescue.As you know,many rescues take place without the taxpayer.

[Guest]

I think Winston is a yachtie.He will help when he is the PM......do you think

[Guest]

Talking about medical kits for offshore, David I'd be interested in what you do especially what you don't go without, what you leave out. Cheers Cathy

 

I can't remember it all now sorry, but my mate the pharmacist basically replaced all the prescription stuff with something else as good but non prescription, then the big gap was the serious pain killing stuff which we couldn't reproduce. Instead he gave me copious amounts of the most potent pain killer he could and we went with that. (with sotto voce comments on exceeding the recommended dose if things were really ugly)

 

Once again it was across the Tasman so around 12 days, and in over 150,000 miles Ive only ever broken out the med kit in earnest once (not to say it won't happen again) but I have no problem with a calculated risk.

[Guest]

While I don't like the current arrangement, the advantage of leaving it with YNZ is that it keeps it from anyone else. I'd rather it resided there than with MNZ or CG or MoT. Probably better to chew away at YNZ, unfortunately as I said they are not exactly set up to enable change.

[Guest]

Paras and Jordons are becoming quite popular. We make a lot of rodes for them these days for a huge range of boats, often a few we wouldn't have expected only a few short years ago.

 

Assuming a 16mm Nylon rode (most common size behind 20mm) around 60mts long, you'd expect approx. 9-12mts of travel due to elastic elongation (stretch) if pushed a bit, more if it's full on. If you are getting around 20-22mts worth the rope is about to go 'F**k you' and bust. You can decrease the travel by using a polyester instead of a nylon. It'll still stretch nicely under good loads but knot quite as much as a nylon. Most go multiplait like a 8 braid as the elongation is a little sooner, smother and it's around 10% stronger. Some go double braid is it looks more pretty and packs away easier. Next to none use a laid rope (3 strand) due to rotation issues. One total moron used laid polyprop and probably lost his entire rode around 10mins after deploying it.

 

Hmmm... well, PARA-ANCHOR Australia who made mine included the instructions "120 meters of nylon braided warp". FOR A REASON I believe. It acts as a "bungy" and the lenght means the wave thats washing your vessel at that time has no effect on the anchor because its about 2 to 3 waves away! The effect it had (and I have used it twice) was amazing! I think the king post or the entire BOW is about to go F**K before the warp? What would the breaking strain of such a warp be? WD is about 4.7 tonne on the travel hoist so obviously a lot less in the water and inertia would have to be even less so I think breaking such a warp as the makers have stipulated as near impossible unless its chaffed?

I believe these should be COMPULSORY for all off shore boats.

[Guest]

i spent a night on a big parachute sea anchor off the wairarapa coast on a 46ft wharram after breaking one tiller. Lashed the other rudder and tiller and waited for morning, thinking we will carry on in the morning on 1 rudder.We had a comfortable night but when it was light the second tiller had also broken, so yes they do get pushed back by waves and this does put a strain on the steering system. It exposed a weakness on that boat but when you think about the stretch in 200ft of nylon you must be dreaming if you think you won,t get pushed back in the type of conditions you would be likely to use it in.

 

As a boat rises and drops off the back of waves THAT puts a strain on your steering! Particulary shallow type vessels (multihulls). And NO I AM NOT DREAMING. I (many times!) observed how the boat behaved on the anchor and there was no significant backwards travel AT ALL. I would suggest you try this; try HOLDING ON TO THE WARP YOURSELF. I bet you can't (I couldn't!) that hold is phenominal and obviously there must be some backwards travel as a wave washes past but that travel is not Not NOT N O T going to EXCEED THE VELOCITY OF THE WAVE!!! duh!

[Guest]

This business of sliding back on the rudder is total crap! It really is like being ANCHORED! Of course if you have gone the "budget" way and bought one too small for your vessel and not worried about the 120 meters of 1" NYLON WOVEN warp... then God knows! For my money, best bloody thing I ever bought for my boat!

 

Thanks for that WD I like to learn stuff like that and store it away for future use.My first boat was a 30ft Van de Stadt,DD constuction and launched 1968.I never knew for sure what model but it may have been a Seahorse.A very seaworthy boat and I wish I had it now.

So what diameter is your para?Do you stow it in the lazzarete?Any problems getting it in and out?Does it dis-assemble?Do you know of any internet pics of similar paras?

 

A "tasman 15" I think. Bought it in 2002 so not sure. setting and retrieval is not a problem ( and I am a single hander) so long as you check the recovery floats are attached!! Not sure what you mean about disassemble? Its all one unit with a self deployment bag and swivel connector. Voyaging, I run the warp down the toe rail attaching it to the staunchins with cable ties which break when its attached and deployed. I DON'T run the warp (bitter end) straight to the king post though. I use a lenght of chain over the bow roller to prevent chaff (so the warp is not aboard) and two more lines running aft to the sheet winches so the strain is distributed over 3 points. Probably totally unecessary as the bow rises and falls with ease and the waves off Cape Turnagain were HUGE when I used it. I think the Aussies who make them have a web-site if you want pics.

[ex TL systems 63]

i spent a night on a big parachute sea anchor off the wairarapa coast on a 46ft wharram after breaking one tiller. Lashed the other rudder and tiller and waited for morning, thinking we will carry on in the morning on 1 rudder.We had a comfortable night but when it was light the second tiller had also broken, so yes they do get pushed back by waves and this does put a strain on the steering system. It exposed a weakness on that boat but when you think about the stretch in 200ft of nylon you must be dreaming if you think you won,t get pushed back in the type of conditions you would be likely to use it in.

 

As a boat rises and drops off the back of waves THAT puts a strain on your steering! Particulary shallow type vessels (multihulls). And NO I AM NOT DREAMING. I (many times!) observed how the boat behaved on the anchor and there was no significant backwards travel AT ALL. I would suggest you try this; try HOLDING ON TO THE WARP YOURSELF. I bet you can't (I couldn't!) that hold is phenominal and obviously there must be some backwards travel as a wave washes past but that travel is not Not NOT N O T going to EXCEED THE VELOCITY OF THE WAVE!!! duh!

no i couldn,t hold the warp and i am not saying that the para anchor gets dragged back it felt like we were anchored to the bottom as you have said. The backwards push is due to stretching the line. You didn,t get pushed back but to suggest that you will never be pushed back on your rudder is a big call. And as far as not going to exceed the velocity of the wave, remember the wave is moving through the water , the water only moves forward if the wave is breaking and throwing forward, otherwise the water just moves up and down as the wave passes.

[Guest]

Copied from the para anchor australia site

 

Drift rates

 

Keelboats with a higher wetted surface area will require a larger parachute sea anchor than a multi-hull yacht of the same overall length. However, keelboats of heavy displacement would require an even larger unit than the first yacht. By this we mean that the parachute sea anchor must have greater resistance in the water than the yacht, the boat must answer to the parachute sea anchor not the reverse. If the reverse is to occur the boat is dragging the parachute sea anchor. When you drag a plow or sand anchor the first reaction is the yacht will lay beam on (not the best position).

[Guest]

Hmmm... well, PARA-ANCHOR Australia who made mine included the instructions "120 meters of nylon braided warp". FOR A REASON I believe. It acts as a "bungy" and the lenght means the wave thats washing your vessel at that time has no effect on the anchor because its about 2 to 3 waves away! The effect it had (and I have used it twice) was amazing! I think the king post or the entire BOW is about to go F**K before the warp? What would the breaking strain of such a warp be? WD is about 4.7 tonne on the travel hoist so obviously a lot less in the water and inertia would have to be even less so I think breaking such a warp as the makers have stipulated as near impossible unless its chaffed?

CG and many verging on most, promote and heavily suggest anchor rodes have to be nylon. Every person I know who has a deep understanding of warp making materials use polyester, myself included. Who is right? Rhetorical question as the actual answer is 'everyone'. Both Nylon and Polyester can be used very successfully in most cases.

 

Why do Para say Nylon do you think? Rhetorical again as we know the answer is stretch, as it's commonly known, as you want that shock absorption you correctly mention above. But does polyester stretch that much differently than nylon? Knot a lot really. Which is superior when talking effective lifespan, abrasion resistance and these days cost, Nylon or Polyester? Polyester. Does that make Nylon bad for use on a drogue? Nope. Does it make polyester bad for use on a drogue? Nope. Does everyone just sticking with Nylon, in this case, make it easier for the generally knot knowledgeable boat user to save confusion and idiots doing stupid shite? It sure does.

 

Std 16mm Nylon has a test break load of 5-5.2 tonnes. Splice a end and that becomes approx 4.5t, less for a shonky splice. Tie a knot in it and it becomes around 2.5-3.5 tonnes depending on just which knot. And then it leaves the factory and gets weaker by the day, the speed of that depends almost entirely on the users. Polyester is pretty much the same strength as wet nylon, note the 'wet' bit, nylon is stronger when it's dry. It makes no difference to polyester whether it's wet or dry.

 

Should you get a drogue line upsized to make 100% sure it'll never break? Yes and No. You want to find the balance between getting the required elongation and still have enough strength. Go to small and the line will elongate magnificently yet could easily just bust. Make it too big and it'll never bust but you won't get the elongation.

 

Should you be concerned if you king post wasn't up to hanging a boat off during a blow and was in fact weaker than the line attached to it? Hell yes. Who wants a stinking big hole in the middle of their foredeck during a storm? Knot me.

[Guest]

no i couldn,t hold the warp and i am not saying that the para anchor gets dragged back it felt like we were anchored to the bottom as you have said. The backwards push is due to stretching the line. You didn,t get pushed back but to suggest that you will never be pushed back on your rudder is a big call. And as far as not going to exceed the velocity of the wave, remember the wave is moving through the water , the water only moves forward if the wave is breaking and throwing forward, otherwise the water just moves up and down as the wave passes.

 

I think you are confusing the rise and fall as "backwards"? No doubt wind velocity and surface area would play a big part in any travel backwards but to suggest that the rudder is in danger to me is a big call. Sure some movement to leeward would be expected but to what degree? My own expereience (and these were BIG seas and 50 knot plus winds with many waves actually breaking over the tops) was the rudder when lashed mid-ships didn't have a problem. The ship behaved the same as if it was anchored to the bottom. A good test would be to set the rudder off to one side and see if the ship answers the helm? If she does then there must be some drift of significance backwards, if she faces the other way then the reverse must be true?

[smithy09 50]

Nice to see this thread going again. I would certainly be interested on hearing any follow up on the JH Zodiac liferaft that the bottom fell out of. That was a disgrace and any report on it should be of interest to many on here!

[Guest]

I asked about that, look for a response soon.

[Guest]

I did too. Something a bit dodgy there me thinks

[ex TL systems 63]

he did say at one stage there was about 100 metres of heavy line in the raft, then that comment was removed a short while later.

[wheels 543]

A floor designed for 8 people would have to have one hell of a heavy line to have it drop out wouldn't it??

[Guest]

I've been following this link with great interest as I have been involved both with having to meet Cat one since it first became law after the first Suva race in 1956.

As very few seem to know the history, here goes:

Thirteen boats raced in 1956, the biggest was Glennis a 34' Jack Brooke design and the pre race favourite. The smalles was Daydream a 26' canoe sterned plywood sloop from Sydney. My boat was Matuku at 29'6" around mid size in the fleet. I was 24 and all but one of our 5 man crew was younger. We had very little safety equipment a 6'6" pluwood dinghy which would carry three of us in calm water. No engine and no batteries, just a bicycle lantern battery for home built nav. lights (only used at the finish) and a kerosine lamp for the cabin. We had no radio, winches, bilge pump or instruments of any kind. We had the kapok lifejackets we'd had since our teenage dinghy days.

Glennis had a double sideband radio and Taurangi an ex army ZCI which I think was a bit like a vhf.

After a pleasant start with moderate SW we encountered fresh headwinds on the second day and many of us hove to. At least four boats returned to NZ when the weather eased. Meanwhile Aoma a 29' ketch from Lyttelton rolled 360 degrees and was dismasted. Kehua from Whangarei after being hove to for 118 hrs. made her landfall on the Coromandel coast presumably at night, as they finished up on a beach near Whakatane. Having mistakenly thought they were entering their home port.

We had arrived in Suva after 11 and a half days, the second boat to finish, before we heard several days later that Aoma and Kehua were home safely.

Later that year a group of us met with Minister of Marine Gair at the RAYC to discuss the forming of a code of safety (Cat One) All of us who were to become NZYF safety inspectors were experienced sailors and boatbuilders. The latter because all the boats of the day were of wooden construction and it was assumed we would spot any weaknesses. We did not really begin to function antil the 1964 Whangarei-Noumea Race. Since then many changes have been made, for instance liferafts were not a requirement until after the 1967 Noumea Race.

About the many of us began competing in Australia and the Aussies were were much more detailed sowe decided as sailors and inspectors to make our rules acceptable in Australia. Then in '71 when the One Ton Cup was defended here we were forced to come into line with the international rules.

Since then additions or alterations have been made when problems occur. Some I concede may be seen as arbitrary but there is a reason behind each. The inspectors are all experienced sailors, our convener circumnavigated in a thirty foot wooden boat I designed and built.Others have at least that much experience , both cruising and racing.

We are not faceless and are aware of how much complying with the rules will cost, but we are also aware that in those early races we really were pushing our luck.

[Battleship 100]

Just an off Topic question.

 

I have always wondered if the Matuku here in Tauranga was Fossils old one, full keeled planked boat, any ideas what happened to it?