category 1 or not

[Guest]

Hi Fossil, you feeling OK now? Michael did our stinkpot cat 1 OK and he mentioned that they had recently re-written some regs for cat 1 to be more pertinent for cruisers. Is this correct or did I misinterpret what he said?

[Guest]

David asks if I can recall why and when cruising boats were included in cat one regulations. Sorry David, I can recall conversations from the 1956 Suva race but not from last week. Be nice to an old coot.

Now you are sounding like my mother (who has taken to calling me Gus???)

[Guest]

Hi Pete,

I don't think anything has changed much in the regulations yet. We have a meeting on the 17th of this month to discuss a few possible changes. Like most fossils I resist change, so we will wait and see. Thanks for the concern I'm not too bad.

[Guest]

 

So if we made a list of the things people seem to not want to carry.

EPIRB

MOB

Liferaft

what else???

 

the mother in law.

 

 

Again - anyone know the history of how cruisers came to be included, we are the only nation on the planet that does this?

[Guest]

Right there I have saved over 10k

course.

Liferafts come up all the time for around a $1K"

 

WHERE!!!???

 

(Serious! all I can find are over the top priced ones or those that are so far out of service they are only suitable as a kids toy)

[wheels 543]

You just have to keep a regular eye open. Just for instance, this is what is on trademe right now. The raft of the last link is still in service.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motor ... 053082.htm

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motor ... 305709.htm

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motor ... 401740.htm

[Guest]

You just have to keep a regular eye open. Just for instance, this is what is on trademe right now. The raft of the last link is still in service.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motor ... 053082.htm

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motor ... 305709.htm

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motor ... 401740.htm

 

Thx wheels (last time I looked on trademe one was forsale and it was over 10 years old! That last one isn't cat1 but will continue looking.

Do you know of any raft hires in Akl?

[Jon 360]

Do you know of any raft hires in Akl?

 

try the 3rd ad down on the left

[Grinna 2]

My understanding is that the Cat 1 rafts aren't structurally different from the coastal rafts, its just the gear that gets packed with them when they're serviced. It should therefore be possible to pack a Cat 2 or 3 raft to Cat 1 standards by adding the nececssary items.

 

Of course, I could be quite wrong about that.

[wheels 543]

Correct. They just pack for the Cat clas required.

[southernman 73]

My brother is getting his boat done for Cat 1 this week and got to say the inspection was a breeze. I guess the difference is that the boat has extensive offshore history. So far he has had to do the following work for Cat 1 :

Haul boat for underwater inspection - $ 350

Update Medical Kit - $ 750

Update Life Raft and Kit - $ 1250

New GPS EPIRB - $ 850

New Flares and Gun - $ 1000

 

No problems with boat - he was only concerned in the event of a roll over how he would open the companion way from inside. It's a bulkhead door and his concern was that sheet could wrap around the exterior handle and stop the door opening - his answer was install some removable pins on the hinge so the door can be opened in any event.

 

His opinion was that the inspector was very reasonable. He has sailed here to NZ from France, been here 4 years and now heading back to Europe via Cape Horn, so he was concerned that his yacht should comply. As the yacht is imported into NZ he had to comply anyhow.

 

The only other extra costs for this trip have been upgraded electronics including chart plotter and AIS as he will be single handing to South America. He has also invested in a Sat Phone rather than a SSB ( old one on board still goes) but the Sat Phone gives him the ability to quickly download the latest weather maps. he showed me how all this works and i've got to say I was impressed with the lastest capabilities offshore. He can even send and receive emails using his gmail account and keep his business going anywhere in the world - impressive!

 

The one thing he found strange was the insistance on checking things like having a Sextant and tables and no questions on the ability of the sailer himself. The abilities were all assumed on the part of the inspector.

 

Anyhow just my thoughts and observations.

[marinheiro 352]

I don't think Wheels is quite correct on rafts - there are some that are suitable for coastal use but their construction is not adequate for offshore and hence not acceptable. This was the problem with rafts in the 98 Hobart, a brand of lightweight coastal raft was being sold for offshore use and they fell apart.

I think really we should be grateful that the Cat system is still under "our" (as in boaties) control and the inspectors are people who have "been there, done that" with the knowledge to actually make judgements and be a little flexible where appropriate. Back in 2005 when I was getting a yacht ready for Suva race, Fossil arrived to do the inspection at the same time as a bunch of techo's who came to calibrate the instruments. I said to John "ok to do it out on the harbour" with his response "no problem". So we were going round in circles out there while John went thru all the checklist items. Now can you imagine some bureaucrat wielding his OSH handbook and having done his personal risk analysis for the inspection agreeing to a situation like this? No way - they would probably want the yacht welded to the marina so it did not move!

How were cruisers brought into the cat system, I think it has been there for a very long time, I am sure some of you remember that ill prepared boat "Sosphan fach" that parked up on Middleton, having left with no safty gear and I think no clearance. At the same time I never could understand in those days why Middleton was not the first place to look when boats were missing in the vicinity - Bill Belcher spent a couple of weeks waiitng for someone to show up, before he set out to drift to Australia.

And there seems to be the line of argument that Australia is some sort of nirvana for independent, inspection free boating. Maybe you don't have to get a Cat clearance for an offshore departure, but they get you from the moment the boat hits the water - boat licience (charged by length so call it a tax), operator's licence (charged for in most states, fortunately mine from WA - granted courtesy of holding a commercial ticket, is free so far) and most of the safety gear required by Cat 1 depending on distance from shoreline. In WA you have to carry an EPIRB if you are more than 2NM from the mainland or 400m from an island. Now on Rottnest Island some moorings are more than 400m from shore so technically you have to carry an EPIRB in your dinghy! And to be sure there is a form of waterborne Gestapo running around to enforce this. It is of note that in spite of all the rules and regs, there are just as many idiots afloat and boating related accidents in Australia as NZ.

As a final comment, I am not sure why there is the argument being used here distinguishing between cruising and racing yachts - both can encounter the same types of accident be it personal injury, mast coming down, keel falling off, or rudder falling off - the latter currently appearing to be the the single most common problem for cruisers worldwide, particularly with the modern "built to a price" so called offshore cruisers

[Guest]

I might be wrong,but over the years I have read about many race boats getting into trouble returning to NZ from a race.And I suspect it is because the delivery crews are on holiday from their jobs/careers and they have to return by a certain date.And in the event of bad weather they will not stop and are more determined to tough it out.A real cruiser can turn back,wait at Minerva reef or even change the destination to avoid nasty weather.

I think the Sospen Facht was a classic case of the weepy relatives and the media demanding that searching continue.The government should have told them to search at their own expense.

[Guest]

As a final comment, I am not sure why there is the argument being used here distinguishing between cruising and racing yachts - both can encounter the same types of accident be it personal injury, mast coming down, keel falling off, or rudder falling off

 

Let me try. If an organising body stipulates Cat 1 for their event I can choose to participate or not. If I want to leave NZ on a sailboat, no matter what, I have no choice.

Add to that the fact that not everything in the schedule is appropriate for every type of sailing (yes I agree the bulk of it is all good and I have many times used the Cat 1 prescription while preparing a boat for offshore as a great checklist, but more often than not I choose to skip an item or two), and that some of those are big ticket items and there's your objection.

[wheels 543]

If an organising body stipulates Cat 1 for their event I can choose to participate or not. If I want to leave NZ on a sailboat, no matter what, I have no choice.

Yeah but if you look at it that way, you could say that an "organising body stipulates Cat 1 to leave NZ" and you can choose to leave or not.

The actual reason an Organising Body has to stipulate Cat standards is an OSH (yes I know it is not occupational) requirement. The Organiser has to ensure to the level of what is possible, the safety of the participants in the Race. The Skipper has to ensure to the level of what is possible, the safety of his crew.

The actual rule is, "You are responsible for your own safety and the safety of those around you and those you are responsible for".

[Guest]

Excuse me for being pedantic but OSH have nothing to do with safety on boats (unless things have changed dramatically in the last few years). MNZ are the responsible body for safety on vessels, even down to incidents embarking or disembarking. Once both feet are on dry land then OSH get their sticky fingers involved. MNZ decided they wanted a minimal standard for recreational vessels leaving NZ and divested this responsibility to YNZ as they had greater knowledge. This explains the huge diversity between the requirements for a charter yacht under SSM and the same vessel under YNZ on an offshore cruise. Luckily the YNZ inspectors have been given considerable leeway in the interpretation of the rules and common sense prevails (in my experience).

FWIW, I have been involved with a few MNZ inquiries resulting from incidents on commercial boats and I can't speak highly enough of the process involved and the educate rather than prosecute mentality they possess. OSH inspectors seem to be know nothing bureaucrats who have never climbed a ladder in their lives whereas MNZ staff are exclusively been there, done that, seamen.

[marinheiro 352]

Squid, your comment seems to be only cost related, but when the chips are down, like J Harkin's recent experience, all that gear starts to look good (notwithstanding liferafts with their floors coming out). The reality we will all have different views on matters like this and there will never be 100% agreement, so the never ending argument will be where the line is drawn - I guess what we have to consider with comparisons with other countries is that you can pretty much expect to get hammered leaving/arriving NZ . I come from the heavy construction industry and am some what more safety aware than many. And the need for having appropriate equipment on hand was very much brought home when on an international flight my doctor wife was treating the collapsed co-pilot of a 767 (the pilot understandably was very nervous asking her time and again "should I land the plane?") and she found the plane's first aid kit was just a joke.

Thinking about Nonam's question re race delivery problems, I don't think you will find there are any greater number of yachts on deliveries getting into trouble than others but there are certainly some increased risks such as

1. making the trip at the wrong time - typically the deliveries are coming back in June or July which is not a good time to be returning from the islands to NZ

2. some of the yachts are a little fragile

3. some of the crews are often much less experienced

but remember also how many American cruisers get a big fright coming down from the islands, because this is the first time many have seen some ugly weather.

[wheels 543]

Quite possible Pete. I threw in OSH because I couldn't think of anyone else that would weld big sticks. And from what I understand, as soon as a "club" accepts an entry fee or subscription, they are then under OSH. So if not, then who is it that throws the book at any Sport organisation and organiser when someone gets hurt or Killed. Like a Bike rider because soemone didn't put a sign up or warn the riders or whatever that one was. Because even if it isn't OSH, the rules of responsibility are still the same.

[Guest]

Dont go there!

 

Fossil and I (and others) were dragged in to a Ministerial audience when a number of our sailing fraternity drowned themselves off Cape Rodney (or thereabouts - my memory is fading) on their return (cruising - that is - not organised) from a Suva Race.

 

Fossil was Chairman of the NZYF Safety Committee and I was Chair of the NZYF Keelboat committee (now KORC)

 

We were able to demonstrate that the earlier race to Suva was conducted under strict rules (relating to safety and qualifications standards) but that the quality and proficiency of the return crews were none of our business. I 'm not sure whether the Minister believed us, but he gave us the benefit of the doubt and we survived to become ancient contributors to www.crew.org.nz.

[Guest]

As a general observation I find Maritime NZ recreational very responsible and pragmatic for Cat 1 requirements. We'll notice the difference when Jim goes cruising. Also I believe AYF Cat 1 requirements totally over the top.

We have a lot to thank our ACC and Liability laws for.

 

Liferafts.

Current regs allow a single chamber for Cat 3. Cat 2 and Cat 1 are dual chamber. So you need to be careful about brands and models when buying a second hand raft.

Also, I think you will find that there will be a slow move to ISO life rafts in NZ. I suspect 2017, but notified in 2013. AYF is going there for 2013.