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Rob Denney at tthe clubnight

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Pity for who ?

 

Anybody who would like to know the price of a Hall Spar mast section for an 8.5 who is genuinely in the market for one is most welcome to call us up.

Quoting on a rig package is a time consuming process that for us begins with an engineering analysis of the boat we are quoting the rig for.

8.5's are not all the same and each requires a custom rig solution.

 

Good luck for your article.

 

Pity for me, I would have liked to meet you. Apparently you are nicer than your on line persona suggests. Pity for the meeting, you may have made it more interesting, may even have encouraged some of the other proa knockers to make themselves heard. Pity for you, you may have learnt something. Not about proas or easy boat building; judging from your posts, you already know everything there is to know about these. But about how openness can help sell product.

 

Then maybe you would not have refused to give a price for your product. This attitude suggests that Hallspars have something to hide. I am sure they don't, but why else would you not take the opportunity to talk about your prices and product? This would probably be a better use of your time than posting silly song lyrics, and definitely better than all the time you have spent posting mostly uninformed and incorrect drivel about proas.

 

For what it is worth, all the other manufacturers I have spoken to (Allyachts, CST, Southern Spars) were very forthcoming with price, weight, and any other details I cared to ask for.

 

I'll make it easy for you. If it is too complicated for you to work out the price for an 8.5 mast, what would 12m of Timberwolf's section cost? No "engineering analysis", just a price for the 12m above the step.

 

Thanks for the "good wishes", but they are pretty pointless given your attitude.

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Pity for who ?

 

Anybody who would like to know the price of a Hall Spar mast section for an 8.5 who is genuinely in the market for one is most welcome to call us up.

Quoting on a rig package is a time consuming process that for us begins with an engineering analysis of the boat we are quoting the rig for.

8.5's are not all the same and each requires a custom rig solution.

 

Good luck for your article.

 

Pity for me, I would have liked to meet you. .

 

No you wouldn't !

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Rob, almost everyone is nicer in person than their online persona!

 

You included.

 

Ta but I disagree. I react the same way to people who are unwilling to examine the evidence about proas (or anything else) in person as I do to that type of person online.

 

People who attempt to destroy serious discussions by unfounded comments (eg "cuckoo", "crazy", "it'll never work", "it's impossible"), then refuse to say why or comment on the evidence are a blight on the discussion. If the group or someone in it lets them know it is unacceptable, eventually they get the message and stop.

 

Tim,

Does your reply mean you don't have enough time to calculate a price for a 12m length of your own boat's (Timberwolf) mast? This is in sharp contrast to the guys at Southern Spars, who have been extremely helpful and forthcoming, and whose product is much lower priced than I thought it would be.

 

Why do you say that I wouldn't like to meet you?

 

I got a couple of Hallspars quotes for masts in private emails. If they are typical, then your unwillingness to talk about your product may be more about potential embarrassment than a lack of time. Should be good for a few paragraphs about value vs perceived value and the benefits of shopping around.

 

rob

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Rob I think you are flogging a dead horse. to race in the auckland harbour with a proa you will get smacked. they are simply not maneuverable enough. The americas cup boys and girls could choose any design they liked for the DoG match but they didn't choose a proa. can you imagine a proa dial up. "Hang on I am in the middle of a shunt" :lol: :lol:

 

However I am wiling to eat humble pie if you build your proa and come out and beat us (Taeping) in the squaddy winter or summer series. I will stand up at one of the after race prizegivings and admit I was wrong and present you with two bottles of Mount Gay! or wine if you preffer. :thumbup:

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I'll let Rob reply but on the night he gave an excellent response to why the AC teams didn't go to a proa. (it seems it was considered).

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Rob I think you are flogging a dead horse. to race in the auckland harbour with a proa you will get smacked. they are simply not maneuverable enough. The americas cup boys and girls could choose any design they liked for the DoG match but they didn't choose a proa. can you imagine a proa dial up. "Hang on I am in the middle of a shunt" :lol: :lol:

 

Thanks for your thoughts, and your scintillating humour. The proa horse is alive and kicking. I have had serious interest in 4 fifty footers (first one starts building next week, agw) since I was in NZ and am visiting the USA to firm up a 72'ter and a couple of 40'ters next week.

 

A few questions for you, although I suspect that you will be no keener to answer them than the other kiwis who claim to be experts on how badly proas sail.

1) How many harryproas set up for racing have you sailed on?

2) How many have you shunted?

3) How many have you "maneuvered"?

4) How many have you seen?

 

Let me guess. Zero, zero, zero,and zero, which is about average for the proa knockers on this list. It is interesting that those who are most anti proas are not only the least knowledgable about them, but are also the ones with the most invested in racing cats and tris.

 

Let me help with your harryproa education. Check out the video at

. The boat is an overweight cruising harry on it's maiden sail with untuned rig and couldn't give a stuff crew, getting along at wind speed in 10 and 15 knots of breeze under main and jib. My boat is 80% lighter, has 75% less windage and 90% of the sail area on a wing mast. The hulls, decks, cockpit, internal fitout, rudders and beam are finished and weigh 366 kgs. Build time so far is 300 hours, material cost $10,000. Just the rig to go.

 

Re a race: Let's make it a test of whether Taeping is more "maneuverable", whether it is faster and whether shunting is quicker than tacking. An Olympic triangle, half mile legs, minimum 5 tacks/shunts per upwind leg, 6 times round. Any busy weekend on the harbour. Any wind strength, though the stronger the better for me. You and your boat vs me and mine. ie no crew. And if I sail over to race you, you will then sail over here (Aus) for a rematch.

 

Let's make the prize a function of what the boat is worth new, built by a professional builder. Mine will be about $50,000 and I will put up a case of Mount Gay. What would a new Taeping cost? $250,000? (maybe a bit more if Tim supplies the mast!) That will be 5 cases from you.

 

Match racing:

If you think about shunting, you will see that a harryproa will beat a cat in a match race prestart.

A proa can:

i) sail backwards under control as fast as it can sail forwards,

ii) tack/gybe from reach to reach far quicker and in much less space,

iii) go from flat out to stopped dead in less than a boat length

iv) accelerate faster than a same length and sail area cat or tri

v) turn in it's own length as it has a bow and a stern rudder

vi) use the two rudders as a very effective brake at low speeds.

 

Let's assume a dial up.

We both luff head to wind. As soon as you stop, I reverse my rudders, sheet on hard and start sailing backwards, dead down wind. As soon as I am clear astern, I sail behind you, beam to the wind, and stop. You will almost certainly drift into me while trying to get out of irons. One penalty.

 

When you manage to pay off and get sailing, I will be right there luffing you, regardless of which tack you are on. You will almost certainly bear away lower than I am pointing as you will have little or no speed or control. Another penalty.

 

Then, I am ahead and to leeward, so you will have to tack away. I shunt, which is quicker, but does not gain me any windward ground. We are both still above the start line and you can't bear away without hitting me. You can tack as often as you like but you will not be able to head back to the start as you will always be the windward boat and I will be reaching back and forth preventing you. I am closer to the start line when the gun goes, so I win the start, and you have two penalties. I can repeat this, and other shunting tricks as often as I like if you ever get near me during the race.

 

Remember, you will need to think about shunting a harryproa (and unstayed rigs, fully rotatable rudders and double ended hulls) before the above becomes clear.

 

Re the AC, I asked Ian Burns, the design coordinator for BMWO why they went with a tri.

His reply: "Having been involved with the ONLY entry of a proa in the America's Cup (1988), proas are always on my mind! With regard to the 2010 cup - our timeline and research options were extremely limited (10 months from lodging the challenge) so we decided to rely on a development of existing knowledge at this scale. VPLP (our designers) are the well recognized designers of multihulls at the 90 foot range."

 

Tim,

Sorry to hear about your boat. Looks like there is a bit more to know about hull laminates than you implied on the proa thread. Still, maybe it will give you a bit more time at work to figure out what an 8.5 mast costs and to answer my previous post.

 

rob

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Don't keep talking it up !

 

Just get on with it, and do it.

 

You are so full of hot air it is ridiculous.

 

 

I don't even think a Proa can get cat 5 safety certificate.

 

Because any multihull must be able to show sufficient windward capability to be able to tack off a lee shore in a strong breeze.

 

No mention there of shunting eh !

 

Looks like you're screwed before you even begin

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Cat 5 YNZ Safety regulations, clause 7.4 (M):

 

"A multihull yacht shall possess sufficient windward ability and assurance of coming about in

bad conditions to enable her to tack away from a lee shore or other extensive obstruction"

 

Tell me this, when you shunt do you not go backwards (to leeward) at some point ?

 

So based on the above you can't get cat 5 in NZ, so too bad for you all the boastful statements you are making

can't be tested because you won't be allowed to race.

 

As to the Americas cup being in Proas, mate take a look at yourself !

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I'm knot sure why so much animosity in this thread but having sailed a few Proas I think some may like to quieten up a little until they see what they can actually do. There is one in the Maritime Museum very close to one of the ones I've sailed on and I'd be laying my bottles of Mt Gay on that long before I'd be laying them on most Akl multis, especially if the course had lots of longer legs. Bridge to Bayswater and back again type course.... knot to sure to be honest.

 

These things are fast and most of the ones I sailed on were hollowed out tree's held together by coconut string with sails that 'interesting' they would give Booboo and Wal a joint heart attack, knot ones that have the advantage of new materials.

 

Knot say Rob's will perform as he expects, I just don't know, but I am saying some here seem to be writing off what are very very quick boats when sailed properly.

 

Or I could drop in that if Tris and Cats were that much better than Proas why have, for many centuries, most Pacific Islanders got around in Proas? Personally I don't really know the answer to that but it is an interesting question to ponder don't ya think.

 

But then Rob is making some big claims so we await with big interest I'm sure.

 

Be fun to watch that theoretical pre-start you described Rob. I wonder what Peter Montcommentry would come up with during that :lol: :lol:

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