samin 0 Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 I also agree that the newer 8.5s should race for line and be on one hcp or atleast very close to each other and the older boats should be on a similar hcp to each other performance based handicaps are based on performance, not on how flash or new your boat is, therefore the only way to achieve what your saying is to change the system to a OMR or other rating rule, im sure you understand this as well as anyone. Eg If some very newbie who cant race to save himself buys a brand new fast boat should they be lumped with a high handicap? Theyre unlikely to get good results so in the end they wont race because they will never win. I dont agree with it but the whole point of performance based handicaps is to encourage participation by giving every one a chance at getting the prizes. To be honest and no disrespect to the others the top for places should really have gone to the older boats and the newer boats should race for line If that was the case then who would get the spot on the MRX? the line honours or the 1st handicap? If it was the 1st handicap then its not fair on new boat owners that they cant get a spot on the MRX. If it was the first on line (which I think it should be, like the Y88s) then all the old boat owners get the shits and you end up with a 3 boat fleet! As club handicapper for 2 years I had a lot of time to mull these issues over, however I think overall the system works pretty well and we should be happy to get the biggest division in the only regatta in Auckland!!! Also an intersting note, the first BMW I put DD, Predict Wind, Epsan Salts and Attitude on the same handicap, thinking its a class and it would put emphasis on the line results, and thinking they would be fairly even. In that year DD sailed well and won every race on line and Handicap! didnt seem quite right so I changed it last year to fairer handicaps where again they won on line and handicap..... Link to post Share on other sites
Rental 1 Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 This debate is Cr*p If your handicap is high take it as a complement, if you want to race on H/C buy an IRC boat, we are staring to sound like a bunch of keel boat owners !! Well done to the DD as the 8.5 is a box rule and you should be given that accolade !! Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 DD will get her -deserved -time in the sun -as I understand it the Nationals (Pony) Trophy is for first on line -this gets awarded at the NZMYC prizegiving night at the end of the summer season. Link to post Share on other sites
johnMi 2 Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Hi all, Didn't mean to dig up this hornets nest. I made my comment after seeing my handicap on the first race being higher than half the fleet, (Whio at .739, and Ocean Pacific at .741.) I was at .743. The results I saw for the first race set me as last not first. This has subsequently been altered, and if I had realised this I would not have complained. It wasn't the fact that the handicap was high, I felt that someone had seen my entry and thought, " Putiki Express, who the **** is he, oh **** it, give him .743 thats right in the middle of the pack" Instead of " Putiki Express, who the **** is he, what's his current form?" Now if that's not what happened, then I apologise to the handicapper. I would have been more than happy with the handicap of .585, but that was not what I saw. We have what I believe is a fantastic handicap system, that Markm has built for us, why don't we at least use this as a check if not as the handicap. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 As a check, Markm, BOI race week, the coastal for the past three years and two years of Squadran results are all used. Link to post Share on other sites
johnk 0 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 oooh some people have really swallowed the hook the line the sinker and the whole rod samin what you and i are saying is not that different, i think the older boats should race for hcp and the newer boats for line, but that doesnt mean the newer boats cant get a win rev the only thing our hcp coming dowm in every race proves is that it was set too high to start with and dude its still 20 points higher than the second highest hcp even after nine races and after we came 6th overall and at no point was it ever anyhting but the highest BUT dude the worst thing of all is if you track DD's Lucifer's and Attitude's hcp over the series thay all come down in much the similar way, while one boat is winning the series or a close second throughout and the ohter two are 5th and 6th i think there is something wrong with the system Deeds 906 906 896 887 878 862 829 779 795 Lucifer 850 850 856 857 855 829 793 776 775 attitude 890 882 879 875 877 849 797 768 761 josh you are right that we should take it as a compliment but when one boat is getting between 2.5% and 6% from its box rule cloest mates and they are beating you on hcp in the first 4 races and then start beating you and pushing you hard on line then the sytem should do its thing and close the gap add to that no recognition at all from the regatta and it just grates a bit and to be hionest we didnt get the worst of it Link to post Share on other sites
johnk 0 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 oh and i love stirring it up Link to post Share on other sites
B00B00 306 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 just a note, 'Rental' on the forums here is Ant, the other (original) owner of the boat. im still running my old user name. But I pretty much agree with everything said, the handicap prize should be very seperate from the line prize with the line prize being the offical 8.5 national trophy and the handicap prize being just that. I tink its very hard to handicap a fleet like this that doesnt get together that often in windward lewards. Link to post Share on other sites
samin 0 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Well it seems most people think it should be a line honours result, like the Y88s with a handicap result as well (but not for the MRX spot) so maybe we should set up an owners meeting at some stage (Tim?) and have a vote, then submit a letter to the BMW organisers nice and early for next year to get it sorted? Link to post Share on other sites
Vorpal Blade 89 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 As far as I see it the 8.5 Galactics Line Honours winner becomes the holder of the prestigious Pony Trophy, (even though it has a serious design flaw which doesn't allow it to be filled with rum), and this is presented at the NZMYC annual prize giving. As the BMW regatta also very conveniently doubles as our "Nationals" I feel the line winner has more than earned the right to be the class representative at the next level, the handicap winner has already carried off the prizes... we have the Y88s as a precedent so Im sure the correct word in the right ear will sort it out very quickly. Link to post Share on other sites
B00B00 306 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 I really think that next year the nationals should be seperate from the BMW. Link to post Share on other sites
samin 0 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 I really think that next year the nationals should be seperate from the BMW. Why? Another regatter will just dilute the fleet even more, bmw multi fleet will drop off. Also are you volunteering to organise it? I think long term its the answer but lets try and get 15 to 20 boats participating first... Link to post Share on other sites
LaurieJ 0 Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 The results should be on line, its a class not a Division. Performance handicap is a 'most improved' prize. A lot of people don't seem to realise that. I actually think the nationals should be the combined results of Coastal/Bay Week/BMW and Tauranga, all on line. The really cool thing about these boats is that they are really fun in the coastal races. The national champion would have to be good at both coastal and windward/leeward racing. The 8.5 are the best class, well done to dirty deeds who cleaned up again- though i don’t think it was as easy as it might look on the score sheet- the racing was pretty dam tight. How many boats can we get for akl-Tauranga, and can we please get results for 8.5s on line.. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 The guys running Ak -Tau are pretty accomodating, just ask, if all else fails Crew.org.nz will spot a bottle of Mount Gay (assuming my supplies arrive on time) for the first 8.5 to finish. I agree - this should be a "line honours" class, but I'm not an owner so my opinion don't count. (Ahem - I may be looking for a ride this year) Link to post Share on other sites
samin 0 Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 I actually think the nationals should be the combined results of Coastal/Bay Week/BMW and Tauranga, all on line. The really cool thing about these boats is that they are really fun in the coastal races. The national champion would have to be good at both coastal and windward/leeward racing. Good idea but it would between Lucifer and Attitude, more of a particiapation award really as Attitude would be the only boat to do all three races last year, DD didnt do Auck-Tour, Hooters doesnt do BMW no other GBEs do coastal racing nor does Epsom Salts...... NZMYC has tried lots of times (and probably are this year?) to do summer and winter prizes based on results from coastal and other series results combined but it never seems to gain much traction as the winner is generally the boat that sails the most, and its often just one or two boats that do all the racing......... I think its better to keep it how it is, the coastal racing has its own appeal and rewards for winning. It think the goal should be 20+ 8.5s in the BMW, imagine the carnage! awesome Link to post Share on other sites
johnMi 2 Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 I'll be there again next year. When is Auckland Tauranga and is it a cat 3 race? Link to post Share on other sites
dirtydeeds 0 Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 I really think that next year the nationals should be seperate from the BMW. yeah I really have to agree with this. If we had our own nationals and only over a weekend instead of 3 days, surely then we could get more than 10 boats due to people not entering with work commitments and whatnot. perhaps 5 or 6 sprints on the saturday and a double points harbour race on sunday? just my thoughts anyway. We need to give the 8.5 nationals the time and effort it deserves, and then it will be recognized as it's own entity instead of some division of the BMW regatta. All the overseas interest has stemmed from our own ability to get decent fleets together and build the class, but now it seems too hard to put in any more effort, according to the website there are over 28 measured 8.5s with most of them in auckland! and only a 1/3 of that turned up for the nationals. People need to get out and race their boats atleast for the nationals, hell it's only 1 wkend out of the whole year. Samin makes another good point on the OMR Rating system the Aussies use, this would help with the handicap debacle and also pave the way for a trans-tasman clash at some stage with the aussie 8.5's being built which is what we are looking for. Good to see you on the wind up jk thats not like you at all! Bobbo Link to post Share on other sites
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