Kawene anchor?

[Steve Pope 243]

Do Tell!!!

[Guest]

a genuine Delta anymore. The Lewmar Delta

The Delta was made by Simpson Lawrence who also made lots of winches. S/L got brought by the mob who owns Lemar. So the Delta still exists, it just changed it's T shirt. It has spawned many knock offs though, the odd one of which does work better but most don't. But then the Delta is getting on in years so that's inevitable.

 

If you put a Delta next to a Excel you'll see very many differences, as the test results also show, the performance gap is very large in the Excels favor.

 

CQR, never a problem then moved to a manson supreme with the only concern is the time it takes to bite

That's a very unusual comment to hear. In fact 9 out of 10 are impressed by and mention the opposite, which is also the reason many swap across. But then is your CQR a real CQR, most aren't, so maybe you have a freaky good plow.

 

There is one other Design of Anchor, which KM is sitting on

Anchorland has real good options in it already plus one particular mob has done wonders with filling the anchoring info sphere with crap, bollocks and marketing disguised as information so many punters are confused now, do we really need to add to that?

 

.after all, the more expensive the effie the better the anchor should be ?!!

You'd think so but that's not always the case.

 

In essence the geometry of the sarca excel is very very close to the delta.

All good anchors share very similar geometry. They can look wildly different but key measurements are always close as the good one next to it. Shift some of those numbers a few mm or as little as 3 degrees and damn good can change to useless shite.

 

Hey in some areas of Canada and England they wreckon that the bruce is the bees knees.....go figure that !!

Not just there, the Bruce is loved by many including a good sized section of the cruising fleet. But you'll notice it's the genuine Bruce and not the knock offs as much. They stopped making the genuine Bruce years ago as china went hard so they thought why bother. They still make the big biol rig and etc anchors though............. which aren't, as the popular myth would have you believe, the same as the recreational ones. Yes it is interesting as the Bruce always features in the tests... near the bottom, but it has a very strong loyal following.

 

(The very best anchor accessory is an anchor alarm set on your chart plotter...I dont care what anchor it is, they all have their moments. None of them like a 180 deg wind shift in a thunderstorm in close surroundings, if you drag from deep sand to sand over rock you are still stuffed)

When you consider 100,000's upon 100,000's of boats have anchored using gear as classy as natural fibre easy to rot rope tied to stones and sticks thru to anchors we all know as pretty damn average today, in places worldwide for centuries yet they didn't die in droves, one could easily come to the assumption that a lot of the marketing yabber that happens today suggesting doom and gloom, plus comments like the quote above, aren't entirely that accurate... sort of.

 

The biggest issue/variable/scary thing we see that an anchor has to deal with is what we call the DOTS, the dick on the stick i.e. the user. Technique is king and it can make a average shitter work beautifully just as a bad technique can make a good anchor fail.

[Guest]

CQR, never a problem then moved to a manson supreme with the only concern is the time it takes to bite

 

That's a very unusual comment to hear. In fact 9 out of 10 are impressed by and mention the opposite, which is also the reason many swap across. But then is your CQR a real CQR, most aren't, so maybe you have a freaky good plow.l.

 

Yes it was ("was" as in it got nicked!). It wasn't as large or heavy as the M/S either and would take almost instantly where at places like Home Bay Rakino, the MS would eventually take hold when we have dragged it a good 50m and almost to the vessel astern of us requiring re-setting again! I have now learnt to drop well past where I want it to set. The CQR held us in 50 plus knots off Motiti one night.

[Guest]

That's very unusual to hear Wetty. I'd like to look at that more to see if we can find out why. PM coming, stand by.

 

Any anchor should hold in 50kts but strangely many ask me for one that will hold all the way up to 25 or 30kts. WTF???

[sow1ld 2]

Ive only ever had excellent results with my other anchor a genuine bruce which, never does well in tests and seems to be hated! That puzzles me

[wheels 543]

We often hear stories of someone that has an older design that has anchored all over and through the worst of conditions and never ever had a problem and then another that can't get the same anchor to work for them. There is a need to consider the entire tackle as a System. It's not the anchor that does all the job. It is a combination of Anchor, Chain, Rode (if you have that) and deployment of that "system". Although if you can make an older design work well, it seems strange you can't get a SuperSarca to work as they are pretty much Automatic.

[idlerboat 116]

Quote:

(The very best anchor accessory is an anchor alarm set on your chart plotter...I dont care what anchor it is, they all have their moments. None of them like a 180 deg wind shift in a thunderstorm in close surroundings, if you drag from deep sand to sand over rock you are still stuffed)

When you consider 100,000's upon 100,000's of boats have anchored using gear as classy as natural fibre easy to rot rope tied to stones and sticks thru to anchors we all know as pretty damn average today, in places worldwide for centuries yet they didn't die in droves, one could easily come to the assumption that a lot of the marketing yabber that happens today suggesting doom and gloom, plus comments like the quote above, aren't entirely that accurate... sort of.

 

The biggest issue/variable/scary thing we see that an anchor has to deal with is what we call the DOTS, the dick on the stick i.e. the user. Technique is king and it can make a average shitter work beautifully just as a bad technique can make a good anchor fail.

 

You sure as hell aint my best friend. !!

 

I totally agree with learning the best anchor technique...

 

But to dismiss an anchor watch like that ?

You may be the ballerina of anchors...but the rest of us are not.

We make mistakes.

It just may save our boats.

One went down only a few weeks ago here.

 

ps I think it only reasonable that you explain the 3 % difference between the delta and sarca.

You may say that, its not what you meant.

You were talking in general.

I ask you for empirical data (not hearsay)...of the difference.

I find no comfort or honesty in any of the crap with the sellers of anchors.

Yep with you too KM.

As displayed with the sarca.

You said it...Im waiting.

Show me the proof.

The high holding test thing is a bit naughty on your part...because as I understand, it didnt fail , they never got it tested !

 

Oh sorry...I missed the middle bit...."trust me".....

why ?

I would like too...but you have to do better than what you have said so far.

[wheels 543]

The high holding test thing is a bit naughty on your part...because as I understand, it didnt fail , they never got it tested !

Are we talking the Sarca's? There is Test data for all the Sarca Range and yes they were and are tested.

The issue with testing any anchor is that there are so many variable and many manufacturers use those variables to best suit there own designs. Sarca tried to mitigate those variables by building a test rig that dragged every make and model of anchor they could get hold of, in exactly the same way. That in itself is not a real world situation, but at least all Anchors tested were put through identical pulls as much as possible. Still not 100% perfect, but that will never be possible, because every Bays bottom is different, everybody deploys differently, every boat pulls differently and etc etc.

[Guest]

I didn't mean to dismiss your anchor alarm comment Idler, I just wanted to suggest a better option to go for 1st is learning how to use your gear properly, something we see many have yet to do. Using the gear properly will decrease your chances of dragging into the rocks dramatically. A anchor alarm only tells you your about to need to re anti foul, if you are lucky.

 

The 3% comment was the geometry in many anchors if changed by as little as 3% can make the difference between working damn well and not working at all well. If you look hard at most of the good anchors you'll see they share very similar geometry in the key places.

 

The difference between a Delta and a Excel is way beyond 3%, which is why you see such big performance differences between them in the tests. Sit the 2 side by side and the differences could not be more off obvious and to many with any engineering type background, why one works so much better than the other.

 

That's all I can work out from your post Idler and I'm a little iffy if I've even read those bits right. I'm assuming you mean the Excel rather than the Sarca, they are 2 different anchors...... all be it out of the same factory.

[smithy09 50]

I think I will be trotting down to the CRA shop and getting one of those nice new Anchors in a week or so.. I have no problem with the current CQR and it has never let go, but I am pretty fastidious about digging it in hard, and that helps...

 

It's getting a bit rusty now though, and I would rather put the re-galv cash towards a new one than get it re galvanised. PLUS.... The Marshall just happened to win a $250 voucher as an "Oh Crap" award for breaking our boom in the last leg of the RNI race, so that will be contributed straight into the new anchor. (Thanks KM! ) Just have to see what fits in the bow now..

 

One of those new, flash ally race anchors???

[wheels 543]

You will fall in love with the Ally one as soon as you see....I mean...as soon as you pick it up.

[gisywaterboy 3]

Thank you to everyone who has answered this topic. It has been very helpful.

I have just purchased a 10lb Manson Supreme.

It actually does fit in my locker ok.

I realise that for a 26ft yacht I should probably have the 15lb but I am pretty light at 1300kg and I never had any problems with the 3.6kg Danforth so am confident that this anchor will do the trick.

I look forward to trying it out over Easter.

 

Thanks again for the advice, I welcome any further comments.

[Zozza 293]

I purchased an 11kg Manson Supreme, which is probably oversized for my 1500kg disp., but I erred on the side of caution I guess.

Haven't used it yet, as I am going through an extended refit, but I was wondering if anyone had ever used the slot?

[rossd 16]

I brought a 10 kg Rocna about 6 years ago for heavy 28 foot, NZ one I think. I never knew much about the slot either until reading this thread and studying up on it. Rocna now call the slot model a fishermans anchor, the slot can be used for lunch or fishing in case it gets stuck and you may get it out by motoring forward over it I imagine. They also say the slot NOT to be used for overnight anchoring.

[Guest]

The slot, or rock slot as many call it, is far from a new idea and has been around for many years prior to the Supreme or Rocna. It's a bone of contention between a couple of anchor makers who all claim they invented it. In a funny WTF if you go suss you'll see it's patented... 3 times by differing mobs. No I don't know how that works either. The Kewene and Sarca are the 2 (most commonly known) who had a slot before most others, bar some hardly known anchors (of which there are LOTS). In an other interesting twist Rocna claim wildly Manson copies their anchor, that's not true but a line they still push hard. The funny twist is if you look at the birth of both anchors the Supreme always had the slot, Rocna saw the merit so made their own version (the RRR as they called it) which didn't really work that well so they copied the Supreme shank which works a lot better. Strangely they don't make much of a mention about that as they slag Manson for copying them. Ya have to love marketing and at the same time feel a little sorry for many who believe it. Caveat Emptor I suppose and more so today then ever before in human history.

 

We commonly get told not to anchor on the slot as it can pull the anchor out. But as much as we try, and we've tried very very hard, all we can find is the person who knows the person whose neighbour knows the guy who works with the person it happened to. Like many anchor myths we can't find anyone it's actually happened to. Basically that is just another anchor myth, one of 1000's out there.

 

For everyones interest on that very subject just in the interest of chucking some real life in - one of the most commonly used anchors in Australasia, the Super Sarca, and has been in use by literally 1000's of boats for many many years only has the slot and no fixed position. Guess what? We can't find one user or even the guys who neighbour works with anyone who has ever experienced a tide change/whatever leading to the slot pulling the anchor out. A scenario like that would be a lot easier to do with a Kewene due to it's design but again it doesn't happen.

 

But if the idea of anchoring on a slot gives you the slightest willys then by all means use the fixed position, just remember when you head back into foul to swap it back to the slot or you won't have that goodness on hand should you need it.

 

Yes the rock slots has save many of the anchors that have them, knot all but a fair number. As another FYI, a lot of the times your anchor is stuck down there it's knot, it's your chain that's stuck in a crevice or something. So next time you're stuck remember that and maybe try to reverse what your boats done in the hope it also reverses where the chain landed and allows it to come free.

 

I realise that for a 26ft yacht I should probably have the 15lb but I am pretty light at 1300kg and I never had any problems with the 3.6kg Danforth so am confident that this anchor will do the trick.

Not a good idea to compare Supremes and a dannys especially by weight, they could easily lead to a visit by Mr Cock-Up. The 10lber would be better at 15 but if you remember scope you should be fine i.e. a good technique will be your friend. Scope scope and if in doubt more scope.

 

Anchors generally* hold the best in the 7 to 10:1 scope range i.e if in 5 mts of water and it's blowing it's tits off, if you can get 40-50mts of rode in the water** your anchor will be given the best chance to hold the most. If you have 10mts of rode out in 5mts of water then you are borderline anchored as upward pull is a anchors enemy when it's trying to work.

 

WHEN PUTTING OUT LOTS OF SCOPE LOOK BEHIND YOU FOR REEFS OR OTHER BOATS AND BESIDE YOU AS YOU'LL ALSO BE INCREASING YOUR SWINGING CIRCE, possibly by quite a bit.

 

* - Generally meaning with most but there are some that prefer other ways but those anchors aren't that commonly used by the majority.

 

** - in the water means from the waters surface, not the boats winch or cleat as that can take quite a few meters out on some boats and if in shallow water it can make a BIG difference.

[rossd 16]

Right KM, the slot it is! Like you say switching from slot to fixed probably isn't practical, where it is, is where it will stay!

[wheels 543]

Also if the Anchor does pop out and turn 180deg, it should dig straight back in again. It's in a slightly better position with Rode already deployed etc, than if you were anchoring first time. And also, even if the anchor was attached fixed and you shifted 180 deg, many anchors won't turn while buried, only a few do and so most pop out and reset again.

Oh and funny thing, way back in the Early days of Rocna, Craig used to harp on about anchors with slots being a bad design and how the Rocna was far superior not having the Slot. Then Rocna was sold, but Craig remained on with the Company and the new Owner decided he wanted a Slot in the shank. Poor Craig, he didn't take to well to that change. Mind you, he didn't take too well to anything, much at the time, Poor lad.

 

With size of Anchor, it's not always about weight of the boat. It is about resistance to the Wind more than anything. When in a good blow, the Boat tends to pull hard back anyway and the times it does drop forward and then pull back hard, the Catenary action of the Rode takes that shock of Pull out. It's that constant pull backwards that the Anchor has to be able to handle, not it's weight. Otherwise my 22 Tonne Boat would need Awatere's Anchor to hold me

[Battleship 100]

I haven't seen a Rocna with a slot, though the change is rather amusing. Our Rocna holds very well athough can take a bit to get it to bite in gravelly bottoms like Great Mercs little harbour.

 

A note on the Alloy ones we have an Alloy Fortress copy on our Harbour Racer and have only used it once. During a light wind race we started going backwards in the tide so deployed the Anchor and the bloody thing shot out the back like a lure, oh how we laughed

I think I would be wary using a lightweight Anchor for anything more than a lunch Anchor.

Has anyone used any of the Racer Anchors for any length of time?

[Guest]

I haven't seen a Rocna with a slot, though the change is rather amusing.

They had quite a size range but it seems they have tapered that back on only 1 or 2 small sizes. The Supremes are a lot cheaper and have the slot as standard so maybe that's got some input.

 

Anchor weight isn't as important as it used to be as the newer designs aren't based on weight, more on area... a bit like a danforth pattern. Hence good alloy anchors can hold as much as steel ones. During the setting phase is where you'll see most difference as alloy is lighter so doesn't always have the omph a heavier one would when punching thru the sea bed. Bar that setting bit the other major difference is cost, alloy usually cost a fair bit more as they use real flash alloy and they are made in considerably lower volumes.

 

So once you get your Manson Racer (the blue alloy danforth patterns) set it'll hold like a school boy with a Playboy. They love the softer bottom types and can often out hold the more common anchors. The racers are very popular secondaries for yachts as they are light and sharp on price.

 

So Mr Willow, your fears, while damn good you have thought about them, aren't as much of a worry as you'd think.

[Xntrix 0]

There is an iPhone app called "drag queen". Saved our arse.