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West 410 fairing


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Bought the above, for ease of sanding, but read the instructions to find its thermo-plastic based and doesn't like solvents and should be sealed with a coat of epoxy as a barrier. There I learnt something. So much for easy sanding.

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410 is what used to once be called Microsphere's. 407 is what used to be called Microballons. Can you see the difficulty in understanding the difference?

In most situations, 410 won't give you too many problems. The main difference in use between 410 and 407 is that 410 should not be used below waterline. 407 is very expensive, but best for below waterline use. If cost is not an issue, 407 is best for all situations, but it tends to be too expensive for most when used in general above water line fairing on large projects. 410 is slightly porous and even when finely painted, tends to leave a surface difficult to cover. Sometimes even, you can get little pin holes in the paint surface. Hence why a final coat of resin to seal it. A high build epoxy undercoat can be used, but several coats sanded tend to be needed to get a decent seal and finish.

Yes it is a thermoset plastic and it does not take a lot of heat to start softening the plastic. Most general fairing situations means that is not an issue, but it is not recommended for use as a joint/gap filling adhesive where joint rigidity is really needed. In saying that though, sometimes a little joint flexibility can be a good thing in some situations.

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sounds like you have 410 confused with 411 there wheels

 

Basically 407 is microballons as wheels said. It is considererd to be a closed sphere or bubble, good everywhere. still like all systems needs painting or sealing.

 

411 is microspheres or more commonly Q-cell. It is considererd to be an unclosed sphere or bubble, good everywhere, and cost effective. only down side is colour - being white some have difficulty seeing it to dress correctly

 

410 is what west call microlight. yes it doesn't mix with the esters and doesn't like some thinners. but a good primer, or proper epoxy sealer and you are fine.

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They used to say 410 wasn't OK below the waterline but they have stopped saying that. But it does struggle under dark colours so don't paint it black. Sands like a dream then seal it is the way to go.

 

Also watch what's what at the moment as they have been playing with colour schemes and numbers so there is weird stuff going on which seems to have caught a few. Watch for the hardeners that used to be blue and red writing, now they are all red.

 

I had a tidy up session in the cave during the weekends construction and noticed 411 can also be called 405 or they are 2 things that do the same job. It took me a little to sort out what it all was as I have some of the old packaging and some of the new.

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A cost effective way to use Microballooons (407) is to blend with Microspheres (411) in a ratio of 2 parts 407 with 1 part 411.

 

This gives a nice stable fairing product which is easy to sand and works out considerably cheaper than 407 on its own.

 

I haven't used Microlight (410) for a long while now as it used to give us a lot of problems.

 

Another trick using 407 or 411 when filling is to add a little aerosol (403) to the mix.

This helps the edge of the filler stand up and reduces sagging.

Sagging is a problem when the Epoxy cures , as it heats up the mix goes a little runnier, the aerosol helps combat this.

Don't put in too much aerosol though or it will be too hard to sand.

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I found using 410 as an adhesive filler on a past project very economical and worked very well. I did do test panels though and used to drive over them with the trusty Honda to see where the weakness was (usually the wood would shear before the west resin/410 brew).

 

Also the setting times have slightly changed on the hardeners, but in the end fast is for the pros and slow is for those of us that like to sit back andd have a beer looking at what they've done.

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sounds like you have 410 confused with 411 there wheels

No not the numbers, but possibly the sphere part. I am definitely talking the 410, which I thought the 410 was the microspere, as in the open cell thingys, but whatever shape they are, the rest of my post is fairly correct. It's a light Tan colour.

 

Another trick using 407 or 411 when filling is to add a little aerosol (403) to the mix.
Tims right on the button. It's called "Thixotropic" which basically means it should stay where you put it and yes it is great to stop sagging. All of the Fairing powders will Sag if you don't add the 403. About 10% to the mix should be sufficient, but it does vary a little on how runny you made the mix and the temperature of the day and how thick the fairing/filling is etc, but the best way to ascertain a proper mix is to do what people that have ever made a Pav or Whipped Cream, is to get the mix to where you can "Peak" it and it should stay put.
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Back in my boat building days we used to bulk up micro balloon mixes with comercial talc also available from Healings ( formerly Epiglass, now International). The talc mixed with micro ballaoons made an easy sanding mixture that was heavier than air and most of the dust generated would just slide down the up turned hull on to the floor. It also left a very good surface for paint or resin to adhere to.

When fairing large area's from dinghy sizes hulls up one of the faster methods is to use a notched spreader or trowel to cover the entire hull with 4 mm square beads of micro balloon mixture, these sand a way a lot quicker than just covering the entire hull. If a hull is built reasonably fair most of the fairing compound will end up on the floor of the shed anyway. When your happy with the surface it's just a matter of filling the remaining grooves in a few low spots. A friend and I were able to completely fair a 31 ft cedar yacht hull in four hours using nothing but long boards using this technique. The notched spreader system works just as well on microlight.

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Yes Talc was common right in the early days, but it was discontinued when the modern materials arrived on the scene, because Talc was both heavy and Moisture absorbent. I remember having a discussion many years back with an Old Boss and telling him Epiglass discontinued Talc because it absorbed water. He said no it doesn't and I said, well why did you use to apply it to your body after a bath/shower. "Oh. right" was his reply. I only got that one in because that was the same description the Epiglass Rep used to inform me.

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