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While racing, Maritime Nav Collision Regs do not apply.


sailinghigh

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Just stated racing and new. I know the collision REGS Rules well enough to feel comfortable cruising NZ territorial waters.

The club follows the YNZ Racing Rules of Sailing 2013-2016 that contains the ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing and selected appendices including important changes from the 2009-2012 rules and the Yachting New Zealand Prescriptions.

 

 

So, I have a fundamental stupid question which I am embarrassed to ask. THE question is, is there any reason for me or any other person to believe that while racing, any of the Maritime Navigation Collision Regs / rules do not apply.

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Between racing yachts the racing rules apply, between a racing yacht and anyone not racing the collision regs apply.

 

In some longer (offshore) races there used to be a stipulation that in darkness the coll regs applied not the racing rules, not sure if that still happens or not?

 

The Collision regs are far more conservative than the racing rules and probably about 75% of yacht racing will contravene them somewhere along the line. :D

 

clear as mud?

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Between racing yachts the racing rules apply, between a racing yacht and anyone not racing the collision regs apply.

 

In some longer (offshore) races there used to be a stipulation that in darkness the coll regs applied not the racing rules, not sure if that still happens or not?

 

The Collision regs are far more conservative than the racing rules and probably about 75% of yacht racing will contravene them somewhere along the line. :D

 

clear as mud?

 

Thanks. How do you identify a fellow racing yacht say Auckland to white Island and return.

 

Leading yacht is on return course.

 

Then you have all the Tauranga yachts added to the mix.

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That's far from a silly question Sailinghigh, it's a damn good one.... and one even some very experienced boaters have had to ask over the years.

 

In some longer (offshore) races there used to be a stipulation that in darkness the coll regs applied not the racing rules, not sure if that still happens or not?
Still do and not just offshore, most that have any night time action in them work the same way. As the sun goes down so to the Yachting racing rules and the Col Regs take preference.
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. . . How do you identify a fellow racing yacht say Auckland to white Island and return.

 

Once upon a time, in a land far far away, the Kings and Queens of England came to rule the waves. The seven seas and the oceans of the world were their domains. What they said or wanted happened.

 

Traditions were established. Sadly standards have slipped in recent years.

 

In the sailing ships of the British Navy, the ensign was flown to identify the nationality, and the bigger the ship, the bigger their ensign was.

High ranking officers had their personal flags hoisted on whatever ship they were aboard, when they were aboard and lowered when they went elsewhere and the source of commands for the ships under that officer's command. The job of the "flag" junior officer was to make sure the "Admiral's Flag" broke out ans was flown when the Admiral boarded that ship.

 

When going into battle, the "Battle Standard" was flown from the masthead of the main mast so all could see.

 

Likewise the traditions flowed down into yachts so that when cruising, an ensign was flown from the ensign staff at the aft end of the yacht (or from gaffs of mizzen masts).

 

Therefore when going into battle in a yacht = racing, a "racing" flag was flown from the masthead, and the cruising ensign was lowered.

 

Flags are commonly "hard" to see at night so simple sailing rules (Collision regulations) applied from sunset to sunrise although some rules use dusk and dawn.

 

In daytime, flags ordering fleet turns and formations were easy to see and so "special" rules for fleets were developed.

 

Time now to read the Hornblower and other naval classic stories.

 

In modern times, the mastheads of yachts have become cluttered with fancy expensive electronics and other stuff so standards have slipped in more ways than one!!

 

Masthead racing flags would tangle, interrupt and damage the windex arrows, the wind direction & speed sensors, the VHF aerial(s) and the masthead anchor, sailing tri-colour and morse signalling lights and for the colonial americans, their lightening protection rods.

 

So flying a racing flag from the backstay became the new system, and different colours mimmiced the different divisional sections of the traditional naval fleet of "ships of the line".

 

Naturally the racing divisional flag was replaced with an ensign when the yacht "stopped" racing. So a yacht with an oblong shaped "ensign" flying is "CRUISING" under the Collision Regs, whilst a yacht with a divisional racing square "flag" was racing.

 

Such usage is more common in European waters especially between England and those Continental types where the 100 years war is still a recent event!!!

 

Sadly advertising and sponsorship has entered the yachting (and sports) world and so sportsmanship and other moral standards have slipped further, orders once immediately obeyed upon the pain of death or worse, are now questioned for accountability and one is entitled to have a support person to help one decide what to do :crazy:

 

Sponsors wanted those nice pretty colourful flappy thingies if they were paying for colour and movement and so racing yachts in the America's Cup & Volvo etc whilst racing, also flew ensigns so the spectators could more easily identify what country each yacht "belonged" to officially, even if no crew or owners were born there.

 

Turning to NZ, we are so far away from the rest of the world, that until recently very very few "foriegn" yachts ever sailed this far south as it was to wet and colder.

 

So in NZ all the yachts were local anyway so we simply do not bother observing "proper British" flag etiquette (?) except for flag officers of certain Royal clubs (Squadron. Akarana, Port Nick) that used to have Royal Warrants to fly "defaced" ensigns and even "white" ensigns, whilst all others flew "red" maritime ensigns.

 

Then the sandal flower powered wise(?) govmt officials lowered even those standards so now a "Blue" national standard flag can be flown as an ensign, whether one is racing or knot :think:

 

So the real test these days to see if a yacht is racing or not comes down to are they shouting at you to go and find another piece of ocean to sail in or knot.

 

Answer: Become the kind dictator and all will be solved by lunchtime :thumbup:

 

What a rave! I hope all above is reasonable and is based solely on my experiences, knot any naval rules or regs etc. Internal Affairs have several web pages & Squadron has comments in their handbook to read for more. To go overboard, the Americans, god bless them, have all sorts of ensigns, state flags, naval and coastguard flags to read up on.

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As far as encountering a non racing yacht while racing, it often comes down to courtesy. I reckon the worst thing you can do is insist, as many do, on your rights as if the cruiser is trespassing on the race track. That's just silly. CAN'T YOU SEE WE'RE RACING YOU MORON!

Makes me cringe, it's so rude.

Different story if someone powers through the middle of a windward leeward race, or a dinghy course, that's pretty ignorant

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PaulR, great post!, well done!

Only one point (again from my understanding!) I thought that the white ensign was reserved for Naval Vessels only, and Merchant or private vessels the red ensign (later allowed the blue as well, as you said)?

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As far as encountering a non racing yacht while racing, it often comes down to courtesy. I reckon the worst thing you can do is insist, as many do, on your rights as if the cruiser is trespassing on the race track. That's just silly. CAN'T YOU SEE WE'RE RACING YOU MORON!

Makes me cringe, it's so rude.

Different story if someone powers through the middle of a windward leeward race, or a dinghy course, that's pretty ignorant

 

Do the yacht club advertise the race course, say by paper? Do the yacht club have the race courses registered with Maritime safety authority and msa advise by notices to mariners? Do the harbour master or the regional council give notice say by paper? Do the yacht club have official sanction by yachting NZ to the race course and they advertise the section on the harbour - gulf - Sea. If not who is trespassing.

 

As a poster stated at nigh the col Regs rule. So why don't they rule during daylight hours.

 

Has there ever been a court ruling re this point.

 

Any body know what the MSA ruling is / advice. Perhaps I should ask them.

 

You are racing and a non racer which you don't know is not racing and does not have the Col regs to his advantage

and calls Starboard on you so he can avoid tacking, what should I do you do.

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You are racing and a non racer which you don't know is not racing and does not have the Col regs to his advantage

and calls Starboard on you so he can avoid tacking, what should I do you do.

 

If you are on port and there is a boat on starboard, you have to give way regardless of whether you or he is racing?

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The general sailing area is in the race docs (NOR and SIs), but not otherwise notified to the authorities unless it's an event that would take over an area (e.g. for large regattas).

 

The ColRegs are foundational to the RRS, this is stated right in the preamble to part 2 of the RRS:

 

"When a boat sailing under these rules meets a vessel that is not, she shall comply with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (IRPCAS) or government right-of-way rules."

 

All this and more at:

 

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ ... 376%5D.pdf

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In fact, the Colregs and the RRS agree when boats are in open water when conflicts are between port and starboard or windward and leeward. The Colregs weren't written to cover situations at starts or mark roundings because neither happens unless the boats are racing. As racers, we agree to be bound by the RRS -- see your Sailing Instructions -- as they apply to us and other racers. With all others, the Colregs still apply.

 

I've had port tack afternoon cruisers insist that, because they weren't racing, our rules didn't apply to them, ignorant of the Colregs that definitely did apply. That's the part that scares me and I always approach a non-racer with caution when I have the right of way. As always, our first obligation is to avoid a collision.

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And I've had racers pour forth a string a vile abuse when in their perception I was getting in their way (I was more interested in avoiding a large container ship entering the shipping channel which it seemed they hadn't noticed). After that my general rule is to observe colregs and if I am the stand on vessel hold my course. I figure I am the same obstacle to all competitors in a race and part of their skill set should be to avoid me if necessary and use me to advantage if they can.

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Yep BP, seen it happen too. In fact, in most races, the competitors do NOT have ANY special rights to that piece of water. It's just courtesy to let them thru, or alter course and go behind them even it you are the give way boat. However if you are going to do that, make your intentions clear and early!! You sure don't want a collision because you "turned the wrong way"!!!! :thumbdown:

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Agreed, IT. Our little inlet -- 6 nm long and 1.5 nm wide -- has to accommodate a wide assortment of sail and power vessels. In terms of numbers, racing sailors are often a small minority; alas, racing sailors who understand the RRS are a minority of the minority. I always assume the worst and act accordingly.

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Also... probably more applicable to multi's but there is the odd occasion where we have to give way a launch.

 

Overtaking from astern.

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PaulR, great post!, well done!

Only one point (again from my understanding!) I thought that the white ensign was reserved for Naval Vessels only, and Merchant or private vessels the red ensign (later allowed the blue as well, as you said)?

 

Yes "White" is for Naval Vessels only normally, but the RNZYS had a special Royal Warrant that allowed only their flag officers (Squadron Commodore, Vice & Rear's) to fly a "White" NZ Ensign and only when that officer was in present and in command of his yacht. Otherwise the defaced blue was to be flown. Royal Akarana YC only had blue ensigns with a "LARGE" naval crown and native sailing two hulled craft. I'm knot sure about Wellington's RPNYC and the Royal Sydney Yacht Squadron with white ensigns.

 

I think the privilage of the White Ensign was in recognition that during WWII, squadron boats were requestioned for naval duty.

 

Sadly with standards slipping the RNZYS has the new Ensign with a big BLUE cross, which could be the sign of the very cross, as the white ensigns were Ohhhh so much more colourful. Terrible when the red colours ran onto the white cloth though!! :thumbdown:

 

BTW I believe, from once upon a time, Auckland is the only port in the world outside the UK to have TWO ROYAL yacht clubs.

 

The same applied to the Royal Yacht Squadron where their officers could fly a White ensign as well. It may of applied to ordinary RYS members but I can't remember nor be certain.

 

So Naval Vessels of the fleet (Ships of the battle line) flew White. Other support vessels (e.g. Tankers & Fleet Auxiliary Vessels) flew a defaced "Blue" ensign, being not as powerful nor important nor up themselves as the "white" ensigned ships, but definately Ohhhh so much more superior in every way to that common rabble found on mechant ships with Red ensigns.

 

The NZ Navy only has a few fighting ships, so even our support vessels fly White ensigns. (Could this be some cost cutting / bulk buying Govt. tender scheme operating :?: :?: Who cares who knows who can neither confirm nor deny) :crazy:

 

Further within the defaced Blue ensigns, a pecking order was established between different government departments and those on Royal official business, hence the HMS names prefix. Again IMHO size mattered and those defaced with big emblems were far more important to smaller emblems.

 

Recently standards have slipped further and even some "boats" (tenders and crew dinghies etc) as tenders to a fighting ship now fly small white ensigns. Before only the Admiral's barge was allowed a White ensign.

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