Marshy 30 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 If the question was "Yachting NZ and the local yacht clubs have 5 million to spend - should it go to Team NZ or go to other grass roots yachting" i would say no to Team NZ, But the reality is if this money doesnt go to TNZ then it will get swallowed in some other economic development project. For example the Tourism Growth Project etc. So the money comes out of a budget to grow the image of NZ - If its not spent on TNZ then it isnt going to miraculously feed some poor family. Nor is it going to help Yachting in any other way - And given the return on investment that we saw last time, i cant see why we wouldn't invest again? Its a great way to show that NZ is at the cutting edge of technology - Yes we didnt win it but we showed some great skill and engineering which showcased NZ. The return from the money invested was doubled. For the Rugby world cup for example we spent 300 million, plus a further $39 million on the festivities around it, and got a return in spending of $780 million. So roughly the same return, and they called the Tournameny "Absolutely worth it financially" and an Over Acheivement according to the organisers... Thats 200% return also but yet Team NZ is a bad investment?? WTF Link to post Share on other sites
Variant 2 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 If it can be shown that the return ETNZ gave to the taxpayer last time was many millions above what was put in. Then could it not be thought that the tax payer actually owes ETNZ money? and ETNZ deserve the chance to try again? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Don't forget people any money handed over now would be not that much short of pouring it into a pokie machine at the casino. All there seems to be is some people in the US who have said give us US$3,000.000 and we'll let you build a 62ft Cat, whose design isn't finalised and will be subject to court case/s in the future. There are no venues, there are no dates, there are no entries, there are no SI's, here is nothing really bar the word of a team who promised a lot last time but didn't deliver a lot of it. And that's way the people who are playing with their own money won't hand it over now. That's not to say all that won't come at some stage, it probably will but right here right now we are talking 100% total speculation so any coin handed over will be done so knowing it may just go in to be never seen again. I think it was summed up well by that 1970's poet H Callahan (with a small tweak) "Well NZ Taxpayer, you've gotta ask yourself a question: "Do you feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?" Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 LETS CUT TO THE MUSTARD HERE... iF ETNZ profile and it pulling power is so good for the NZ marine industry then why... 1. Are fleet numbers not growing 2. Yacht club membership declining or not growing 3. The boat building industry is stagnant and only Alloy Yachts is hanging in there. 4. exports of other boats is In Decline with cut backs at major producers like Stabi, McClay, ... 5. No new export business starting up and very little foreign investment in the NZ marine industry. I even doubt the tourism numbers are effected by ETNZ and the AC. The tourist that come here are mainly "bucket listers" eco greenies, Aussie skiers, chinese house buyers, and euro backpackers looking for a cheap ride . The only foreign investment into the NZ Boating scene has been Larry in Warkworth, a few refits, and The existing carbon spar /fitting guys producing for some export. : Also, what does the likes of the MIA and Peter Busfield actually do and how are they accountable? 40+ million for a team v 40+ million for targeted marketing of the marine industry... what would you desire? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 I'd always read on here and elsewhere that in cash terms the investment in ETNZ was neutral for the govt and overwhelmingly positive for the marine industry and tourism sector. Tourism maybe. The Marine??? I have problems agreeing with the term 'overwhelmingly positive'. Maybe if you are a small handful of companies but over all I seriously doubt it's had a big impact or much of an impact at all. Hence I think that argument the industry needs the AC just isn't true. Without a tiny itsy bitsy shadow of a doubt the NZ Govt could boost the marine industry a lot better a lot faster and with a lot less coin in ways that have zero to do with the AC. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 The New Zealand Brand? Does anyone really think we need to "brand nz" that my friends is pure marketing gravy train bullshit. Yip the spin doctors are running the asylum (aka NZ) Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 I'd always read on here and elsewhere that in cash terms the investment in ETNZ was neutral for the govt and overwhelmingly positive for the marine industry and tourism sector. Tourism maybe. The Marine??? I have problems agreeing with the term 'overwhelmingly positive'. Maybe if you are a small handful of companies but over all I seriously doubt it's had a big impact or much of an impact at all. Hence I think that argument the industry needs the AC just isn't true. Without a tiny itsy bitsy shadow of a doubt the NZ Govt could boost the marine industry a lot better a lot faster and with a lot less coin in ways that have zero to do with the AC. Fair enough, delete 'overwhelmingly'. I'm not sure how not funding ETNZ does anything for the marine industry though. Although obviously it could do something else as well as funding ETNZ if the Govt's own numbers are correct. I tell you whom it is positive for... By the way most of these "winners" send there money offshore and invest bugger all in NZ... 1. Hotels 2. Rental car and van companies (aka kiwi killers) 3. Ski fields 4. Private resorts 5 supermarkets 6. Petrol companies 7. Breweries Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Funding it has to be better for the industry than not funding it but if that's the guts of the business case for funding TNZ then it is an extremely tenuous reason at best. I seriously doubt if TNZ flagged it the industry would notice any difference. Link to post Share on other sites
banaari 27 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 The New Zealand Brand? Does anyone really think we need to "brand nz" that my friends is pure marketing gravy train bullshit. Sorry, my bad - poor choice of term. I was referring to the general exposure for NZ, the marine sector and tourism as referred to by other posters. Link to post Share on other sites
sailinghigh 0 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 LETS CUT TO THE MUSTARD HERE... iF ETNZ profile and it pulling power is so good for the NZ marine industry then why... 1. Are fleet numbers not growing 2. Yacht club membership declining or not growing 3. The boat building industry is stagnant and only Alloy Yachts is hanging in there. 4. exports of other boats is In Decline with cut backs at major producers like Stabi, McClay, ... 5. No new export business starting up and very little foreign investment in the NZ marine industry. I even doubt the tourism numbers are effected by ETNZ and the AC. The tourist that come here are mainly "bucket listers" eco greenies, Aussie skiers, chinese house buyers, and euro backpackers looking for a cheap ride . The only foreign investment into the NZ Boating scene has been Larry in Warkworth, a few refits, and The existing carbon spar /fitting guys producing for some export. : Also, what does the likes of the MIA and Peter Busfield actually do and how are they accountable? 40+ million for a team v 40+ million for targeted marketing of the marine industry... what would you desire? Plus why does NZ not have world recognized custom designed boats built here on NZ soil but instead importing overseas custom built yachts. Tourism NZ budget / spends approx. $ 300 m a year. We don't need the cup here. Look at Auckland house prices since when RNZYS held the cup. NZ did not hold the Cup. That's when the prices started escalating. The NZ marine industry expertise, key staff, and qualified with long time training, experience was exposed, purchased by the overseas marine industries and NZ is still suffering. The first thing NZ does not need is the America's Cup. Where is Allan Bond Now. He was bankrupted. Why was it allinghi did not re challenge. Why is it the Marine industry is not funding. They know a thing or two. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Very valid points there SH. But the auklands selling in a high market love the current value. Its just the poor bastards that are buying ( the fair dinkum kiwis that is) that are squeezed out and forced to consider Ekatahuna as a housing option. I have a feeling the recession is not over just yet. Link to post Share on other sites
Atom Ant 0 Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 LETS CUT TO THE MUSTARD HERE... iF ETNZ profile and it pulling power is so good for the NZ marine industry then why... 1. Are fleet numbers not growing 2. Yacht club membership declining or not growing 3. The boat building industry is stagnant and only Alloy Yachts is hanging in there. 4. exports of other boats is In Decline with cut backs at major producers like Stabi, McClay, ... 5. No new export business starting up and very little foreign investment in the NZ marine industry. I even doubt the tourism numbers are effected by ETNZ and the AC. The tourist that come here are mainly "bucket listers" eco greenies, Aussie skiers, chinese house buyers, and euro backpackers looking for a cheap ride . The only foreign investment into the NZ Boating scene has been Larry in Warkworth, a few refits, and The existing carbon spar /fitting guys producing for some export. : Also, what does the likes of the MIA and Peter Busfield actually do and how are they accountable? 40+ million for a team v 40+ million for targeted marketing of the marine industry... what would you desire? Plus why does NZ not have world recognized custom designed boats built here on NZ soil but instead importing overseas custom built yachts. Tourism NZ budget / spends approx. $ 300 m a year. We don't need the cup here. Look at Auckland house prices since when RNZYS held the cup. NZ did not hold the Cup. That's when the prices started escalating. The NZ marine industry expertise, key staff, and qualified with long time training, experience was exposed, purchased by the overseas marine industries and NZ is still suffering. The first thing NZ does not need is the America's Cup. The key word here is need. I agree, we don't need it. Want it? Could be a different thing Where is Allan Bond Now. He was bankrupted. not by the AC Why was it allinghi did not re challenge. Bertelli threw his toys out when his legal team was bested by the Oracle legal team and then thrashed on the water. He'll be back when he gets over himself Why is it the Marine industry is not funding. They know a thing or two. Don't know, The ROI has never been specific to the marine industry but to the economy in General, which the marine industry is a part of - a very small part of. Link to post Share on other sites
sailinghigh 0 Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 No the Govt should not fund TNZ. GD has stated that they are in a very good place funding wise but the money is not available till a later date. Should the Govt give TNZ an interest free loan until the sponsorship money becomes available? I would like to see TNZ challenge for the AC again. They came so close last time and would have a big head start on all the other challengers. The best thing that could happen to the AC is for Ellison & Coutts to lose it. Is that not the job for the Commercial banks. The new rules cover all the previous loop holes and it will be even more difficult to beat the America's. Read the new funding rules and the at call clauses, the penalties for non compliance. Court cases again. Very clever and smart. That's how the America's cup is won and always will be. Remember Dalton is a salesman. TNZ funds must operate through a Commercial bank account. If the bank was happy ? ? ? ? Plus Dalton knew the entrance fee had to be paid and they have spent it themselves, salaries ect. The $5m was a pretty big unemployment payment. He should disclose how much, who, and how this unemployment grant was distributed. The first thing he should have done was to put $3 on fixed deposit and if his sales pitch is as he says it is then he would not be sounding on. Smart CEO policy I would have thought. Could have said to the team we are all volunteers now until the new protocol arrives and only direct air fares \ for commercial sponsorship are payable from the account. Allan Bond would probably not have been bankrupted if he hadn't wasted his energies, funds, corporate time on the America's cup. Link to post Share on other sites
sailinghigh 0 Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 No the Govt should not fund TNZ. GD has stated that they are in a very good place funding wise but the money is not available till a later date. Should the Govt give TNZ an interest free loan until the sponsorship money becomes available? I would like to see TNZ challenge for the AC again. They came so close last time and would have a big head start on all the other challengers. THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD ONLY FUND EVENTS HELD ON NZ TERRITORIAL, EXCLUSIVE TERRITORIAL WATERS, OCEANANIA WATERS AND REQUESTS ARE WITH THEM, THE OPOSITION AT THE PRESENT TIME TO CONSIDER FIRST AND FOREMOST AND NOT THE AMERICA"S CUP CHALLENGE: Elevation Quote = "Should the Govt give TNZ an interest free loan until the sponsorship money becomes available?" That is the job for the Commercial banks to evaluate. The new rules cover all the previous loop holes and it will be even more difficult to beat the America's. Read the new funding rules and the at call clauses, the penalties for non compliance. Court cases again. Very clever and smart. That's how the America's cup is won and always will be. The protocol also has some tough new regs. Should The regatta make a loss the loss is recoverable from the participants. Website fees/ costs are paid by the participants. The clause re the Fund manager can ask the participates for more funds / fees / expenses when the fund is running at a loss at any time, not the GGYC or race organisers, and failure by a contestant to pay on time will result with a automatic disqualification from the regatta. Well if you don't have a billionaire as banker like say like TNZ, should they get to the entry stage and looks like a threat at winning, hello the regatta is running at loss BILL them a further $18m plus each, particularly if they have not budgeted a figure could be the organisers CALL. Particularly when the contestants don't have a say re expenses and spending and at what point they are paid. Remember Dalton is a salesman. TNZ funds must operate through a Commercial bank account. If the bank was happy ? ? ? ? All he has to do is offer his property, dean barker, and his crews property as collateral to obtain a bank overdraft. The question must be asked why not. He obviously does not share the publics confidence, the posters here about winning and has only changed / soften his spin when he suddenly realised / analysed he had just done a Dean Barker and stated the true situation / hurdle, shot himself on both feet to all commercial funders, govt, funding and the team was really going become unemployed. It's like when they where making the rules for the last America's cup. The rule makers, when developing the rules, where receiving calls from highly paid crew members saying you not going to put / include / allow a little motor are you, because that would make about 30 on us unemployed [ Grinders ]. Plus Dalton knew the entrance fee had to be paid and they have spent it on themselves, salaries etc.. The $5m was a pretty big unemployment payment. He should disclose how much, who, and how this unemployment grant was distributed. The first thing he should have done was to put $3 on fixed deposit and if his sales pitch is as he says it is then he would not be sounding on. Smart CEO policy I would have thought. Could have said to the team we are all volunteers now until the new protocol arrives and only direct air fares \ for commercial sponsorship are payable from the account. Allan Bond would probably not have been bankrupted if he hadn't wasted his energies, funds, corporate time on the America's cup. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 No more money for them !!! , they are a business , not a National team. Choking , pay packets , and egos aside...it's not a Team picked from trials. Very pleased to see Joyce say no to them for more money. Thank God. If they are so so good at raising money , get it commercially or from their own fund raising. Not from Govt (taxpayer). I am with you Wild Oats , hard to hold back ! Agree Additional Poll http://crew.org.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24504 Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 No Another poll instead, rather than a America's cup challenge for NZ yachts persons http://crew.org.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24504. Link to post Share on other sites
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