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Who is going to buy our yachts and at what price?


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You need a market to buy or sell mostly anything.  The world has changed and the one thing that is obviously not there any more, is time.  Time to spend jarring down the yacht club.  Time to spend reading endless yachting magazines.  Time to spend talking to old salts about what they knew.  Looking at boats.  Sailing boats.  Sanding and painting.  Sailing home from the Barrier at 4 knots.  

 

It is the reason why we have AWBs - you can buy Instant Yachting.  Stay at work 240 hours/week and you don't have time to relax.

 

Dumbasses.  "Nobody on their deathbed has ever said "I wish I had spent more time at the office"."

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A lot of good points here being discussed. 

 

A 30y old kiwi boat, as Motorbike points out, suited the market just fine 30y ago when it was new, but people want more from their boats now. Is that a thing to bemoan? That given the technological advancements, and the things that people can now do that directly compete with yachting for precious little family time, people actually want or expect more from their boats than an H28 or a nice T32 can offer?

 

How do we measure quality? Our kiwi boats were awesome 30y ago. Also, even though some of those 30y old boats were and still are quickish boats (R930, Young 88 etc) and built well, let's see, if you're a 35-40y old (or younger) and going to drop 30-50K (and up to 70K) on a boat that's a 35y old design how long do you want that boat to last? Where will that put you 15y down the track? You'll have a 50y old boat that's now worth what?? Is it at the end of it's life? Quite possibly. 

 

The purchase price of a boat is the smallest part, realistically, as we've had examples here. 

 

So you've got a boat that's cost you 60k to buy, +150K or more likely 200K to have kept for the last 15y, and at the end of it you have a 50y old glass boat that might be hard to even give away.

 

A new (or newer) boat will cost less to run, at least earlier in it's life. I can go out tomorrow and order a new Pogo 30, and have it in March. It's no uglier than your average NZ 35y old boat, and it will definitely last me 15y. It will cost 140K, NZD + or - taxes and a few extras or whatever. With its lifting keel, I'll keep that thing on a cheap swing mooring and have an engineering company make me a trailer to haul out. Hire a pilot once a year and take it home. Maintenance will be greatly reduced for the first part of it's life until things start to wear out and need replacing.

 

I'll go out and do races and have a blast, pointing like a priest at a Salem witch trial, and planing in anything over 10knts. Everyone will be envious of the trophy cabinet, and in 15y I'll sell it to someone for probably more than it's worth and probably have spent in total less than I would have over that time had I bought the 35y old NZ boat.

 

I'm pretty sure this scenario has played out in NZ before. In the late 60s and 70s, when the fast light boat came of age and the iconoclasts put the wind up the old boys club who sat around wondering who was going to buy their kauri, teak and bronze (as nice as it is), and making rules to stifle innovation, claiming that the new boats wouldn't stand up to a decent bit of weather. At the end of the day, there're only so many sailors who are into it for the nostalgia. The big heavy boats were gradually recycled and we got a bunch of newer faster more easily sailed (and dare I say safer) boats that became the mainstay of NZ yachting for many years. 

 

Now the wheel turns again, only this time our potential patronage are faced with myriad other distractions, so we have to offer something better, faster, more exciting, or we'll be completely marginalised.

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Take your point Dr.W.

But consider my H28. The previous owner spent over $21,000 having the bottom planed and reinstated in vinyl ester. He also put in a new 30hp Perkins which today has 2200 hours on it. During my ownership she's had a two pot paint job, new windows, new gearbox, canvas work, wind vane self steering, a cabin heater, solar panels,chart plotter etc, apart from all the usual maintenance. All the interior timber is African mahogany and 7-ply mahogany plywood, unlike today's customwood interiors.

Bulkheads are tabbed to the hull with full length tapered layers of CSM which extend onto the hull by 30cm, unlike today's construction. In other words she is a properly built vessel which is why she is as good today as when she was launched 39 years ago, and because all her owners have cared for her.

I'm going to sell her now and am realistic enough to know that H28s have a market value of $22-24,000 and that's it, irrespective of what's been spent on them.

As stated in an earlier post, her accommodation may leave a bit to be desired if you're into serious mollycoddling. But do you rather sit in your chair bemoaning the fact that you can't afford 50-70k for a frilly import or do you want to spend $22k for a damn good boat and go sailing?

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Good post Dr.

Is a new Pogo 30 only $140k? nz

The Pogo is something I can get excited about. I very much like the swing keel, and the utilitarian nature of the whole package. It comes across as a "one head" kind of boat.

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They're 90K euro, or there abouts, but that's sans sails and the lifting keel is likely to be about another 5k. also ex GST.

That's why I indicated +- tax and extras etc.

 

But it's also fit for ocean work, and is unsinkable, like the 36... 

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You can have a near as new NZ 30fter, with fruit, on a Cat 1 startline for 90K.

You can have a older by still capable NZ 30fter on a Cat 1 startline for less than 50K.

 

Hmm...racking my brain... are there any near as new NZ 30fters?? Just curious what you have in mind. Maybe I'm having a senior moment. For that matter what older boats are you thinking of, ready to go. Just want to calibrate my thinking.

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For most people 90% of their time on-board is spent at anchor. Those who go offshore soon find that ocean cruising speed averages out to around 4.5 to 5 knots, yes there are faster

 

boats and slower boats, those who motor in the light and those who wait for the breeze to fill in.   Time at sea to Tonga average 10 days, Fiji 9 days, New Caledonia, Vanuatu respectively

 

8 days and 11 days. Once you are there (Fiji) you are island hoping and reef searching with reasonably long periods of idleness, swimming, socialising etc. So you need a safe boat for the

 

ocean passage , but and equally importantly a live-able boat once you are there. There are a plethora of suitable yachts on the NZ  market that will give all of the above without having to

 

buy a "new" toy. Also what doesn't seem to be taken into account is the enjoyment of tinkering and tweaking that for some guys is as important, and sometimes more important than

 

actually going sailing. Your new (to you, used charter boat) plastic fantastic doesn't allow this. What it does allow is for someone to fix/service the refrigeration, failed anchor winch,

 

watermaker, electronics, motor etc. Having seen this played out last year between NZ and Fiji (return). Broken gooseneck, several failures of windlass circuits, failure of refrigeration

 

compressor, and misdiagnosis meant it took 3 (I think)  new compressors fitted and subsequently failed before the fault was eventually found elsewhere in the system, suspect keel bolts,

 

(weeping rust at the keel / hull interface, plus various other breakages, failures. That the cruise was eventually successfuly completed says much about the people sailing the boat ++++

 

and so much more about the bargain? that they bought - - - - .

 

I second Chris's comment above.

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Hmm...racking my brain... are there any near as new NZ 30fters?? Just curious what you have in mind. Maybe I'm having a senior moment. For that matter what older boats are you thinking of, ready to go. Just want to calibrate my thinking.

 

KMM is "rebirthing" a ross 930.  I assume the 90k is purchase of a 930 plus the cost of building it back to as/better than new if doing the labour yourself.

 

That, 95K Euro, is NZ$197K landed in Auckland, shipping, duty and GST paid.

 

By the time you've commissioned and tickled her into NZ spec, brought sails and got to Cat 1, probably another 30-35K so that gets us too 235K on the startline.

 

 

Conservatively.  They've got a decent sized rig, to get a main, couple of jibs, MH and Fractional gennaker and storm sails is probably going to eat 30k on it's own.  And that's a fairly basic wardrobe for a boat like that I'd have thought?

 

Then if it's got no sails, does it have running rigging etc?  if not you've got that, boatbuilding work to attach keel and rudder assuming it doesn't fit in a container with them on, hardstand time while that's done, probably an electrics package, etc etc etc.  And that's without starting on cat 1 if you want to go down that track.

 

Starts to sound like at least 250K

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By the time you've commissioned and tickled her into NZ spec, brought sails and got to Cat 1, probably another 30-35K so that gets us too 235K on the startline.

 

Yeah right!  I did a full costing and got a quote for a POGO 30 and it's a lot more than that if you want the lifting keel and all the extras.  I sailed one last year in Europe.  Nice boats.  I worked out that the cost here in NZ would be 275k.  

 

There are quite a few sailing around the World, saw one in Fiji a few weeks ago, owner sailing here from France to New Cal.  

 

Point is, is any boat owner actually honest about how much they spend on their boat?  I doubt it!  
 

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indeed!  Same arguement I've used in my rebuild of Ballistic.  However we both ignore our own labour "costs".  Some people can afford to have others do this for them, while others can't and so do it themselves (becasue they can), while others can't afford others to labour but can't do it themselves, while others can afford to have others labour but still want (and can) to do it themselves!

 

I could go on but I'm getting dizzy!

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Boating can be cheap or expensive,  you can repaint yourself with a brush or pay 30 k for a fancy sprayjob.... I have had over 20 multis since 1981 and my annual cost of ownership  including the cost of the boat I have now are still less than zero .......   and I have never paid to haul a boat out of the water yet, although I will have to pay next time.....    There is a big production cat recently listed on TM for under 200k , a couple of years ago it would have been 300 plus  ,,, Still there is a good chance that that sort of thing will be even less in the next few years, and the 200 left in an investment should go up and not down in that time,,,, Just like cars I reckon you can have just as much fun in a cheap one as in a dear one although if I had heaps and heaps I would be tempted by the Neel 45 trimaran that has just listed on TM for 585k   but on the budget side the 45ft nz built tri that recently sold at sandspit for around 10 percent of that price was really good value even without a rig. 

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Holy crap! I was offered a topside vinyl wrap in my choice of colour with a 6y guarantee for 1100 euro... That must be a legend sprayjob!

 

 or pay 30 k for a fancy sprayjob.... 

 

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You would hope so, but what I mean is you could drop your boat off at a boat builders and say just fix everything that needs fixing and come back when they have finished, or you could just use the boat for a few years worth of holidays and gradually tidy it up along the way.    It also depends on the boat , an expensive production boat deserves a professional quality paint job and anything less would devalue it, where a plywood Wharram catamaran can be painted on a beach with a roller and look just fine. 

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Point is, is any boat owner actually honest about how much they spend on their boat?  I doubt it!  

 

Just did a summary yesterday :$15,544.  (ouch)

 

Includes: deck paint (by us), new spinnaker, $5K berth rental, $1500 gooseneck fitting, Wort value was $1300 onliferaft certification.

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And a 30 year old Farr 1220 is worth 175-200K!!! :lol: the prices of some local boats are no longer realistic especially when the first thing you will need to do is put a new engine in them and second upgrade the sails.

There are some great deals offshore even when factoring getting them here and duty, GST. Now where was that lotto ticket..... :oops:

A very tidy 1220 called Placido was listed at 120K, it sold a few weeks back. Others are listed around 140 to 150K but they are not moving at all. Anecdotally I heard some of them have issues, I think the owners have not adjusted to market reality.

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Actually Rats, IMO some of them are. Some have the new engines, repaints and new sails.... But I'm biased towards Farrs!! :lol:

The ones that don't have the maint done and good gear are NOT worth those prices at all...

Having been active recently in looking for a bigger boat I have looked at a lot of vessels around 38 to 40ft.

The problem is there is a lot of "Tired" stock out there where the maintenance and upgrades have not been done. 

Also when you place a 30 year old NZ production boat alongside say a bene or Bavaria the interiors of the NZ boats just look very basic, even dare I say it crude eg exposed fibreglass, front runner or similar everywhere, exposed bolt heads, etc.

its a no brainer that the import is better value for money. The old rule of thumb for the engine in yachts was 2HP per Ton, now its more like 4HP per ton. So there are a significant number of older boats that are under-powered. repowering is eye wateringly expensive so you may have to factor that in to your "bargain"

I agree with Matt, search for the rare boat that has had money lavished on it. You will pay top dollar but it is way cheaper in the long run  than the project boat. 

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Friends My take on this Subject.

 

No body.

 

NZ Fibre glass boats 30 years old when manufactured used excess resin content compared with today. The problem with polyester fibre glass made boats from that era, I know was thought to only have a life span of 30 years. The reason being that Polyester fibre glass keep on curing until brittle and crumbles. They might have solved the problem with the new resins. A lot, perhaps not all used excess harder for quick fast hardening. I would not buy that age vessel unless as a live aboard at a marina to beat house prices. A 50 footer multihull would be a cheap house probably under a $100,000, but would not have arising value like a house. But you would not have a mortgage, interest and mortgage renewal problem. Marina fees are cheaper than house rentals as well with no electricity bills.

 

Wooden boats glues 1970 1980 eras life span was 30 years. So those boats are being held together with marginal strength and need re gluing and the like. Boats that where a classic whispers on Wellington had to re glue. Costs a fortune.

 

Explained to me by a naval architect. A new jigsaw puzzle all holds together when new. Made numerous times after breaking from new. Try lifting the puzzle and holding the puzzle - you can't. Large pieces separate.

 

Glue life spans now not sure.

 

NZ prices are ridiculous - like the charter industry. Australia approx half the price and the winter prices is about 70% cheaper than NZ charter prices.

 

You can fly return air fares ,charter twice as long more than charter a vacation NZ.

 

An overseas boat the same applies plus the costs on sailing her, import duty, insurance ocean going terms costs, crewing problems, especially if I'm the crew member or any other educated crew member re repatriation should you have a disagreement, liability when they are ashore for all costs, fines, law infringement. etc. If the port you enter has a casino, you better make sure they [ the crew members ] are not compulsive gamblers. Any loses they can't make good, the captain is liable. Read the fine print when entering port you sign. How would you like to be told you can't leave port until your crew members casino's $300,000 is paid and if you can't pay then you forfeit your boat plus.

 

or Your crew member got drunk and booked a pro $600 and can/t pay.

 

OC

I looked at importing, by the time you factor in all the costs it just does not stack up.

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For most people 90% of their time on-board is spent at anchor. Those who go offshore soon find that ocean cruising speed averages out to around 4.5 to 5 knots, yes there are faster

 

boats and slower boats, those who motor in the light and those who wait for the breeze to fill in.   Time at sea to Tonga average 10 days, Fiji 9 days, New Caledonia, Vanuatu respectively

 

8 days and 11 days. Once you are there (Fiji) you are island hoping and reef searching with reasonably long periods of idleness, swimming, socialising etc. So you need a safe boat for the

 

ocean passage , but and equally importantly a live-able boat once you are there. There are a plethora of suitable yachts on the NZ  market that will give all of the above without having to

 

buy a "new" toy. Also what doesn't seem to be taken into account is the enjoyment of tinkering and tweaking that for some guys is as important, and sometimes more important than

 

actually going sailing. Your new (to you, used charter boat) plastic fantastic doesn't allow this. What it does allow is for someone to fix/service the refrigeration, failed anchor winch,

 

watermaker, electronics, motor etc. Having seen this played out last year between NZ and Fiji (return). Broken gooseneck, several failures of windlass circuits, failure of refrigeration

 

compressor, and misdiagnosis meant it took 3 (I think)  new compressors fitted and subsequently failed before the fault was eventually found elsewhere in the system, suspect keel bolts,

 

(weeping rust at the keel / hull interface, plus various other breakages, failures. That the cruise was eventually successfuly completed says much about the people sailing the boat ++++

 

and so much more about the bargain? that they bought - - - - .

 

I second Chris's comment above.

One fairly experienced offshore sailor I spoke to said that all else being equal  the faster more modern boat would cut a day off the passage.time to Fiji , handy I suppose but is that really a big deal ? 

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