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Lithium?


Glsssbead

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I've got an 80's racer/cruiser with an 80's regulator and not so old, but tired house battery and alternator, and am thinking about swapping out to lithium as follows:

 

Replace my existing start and 100 amp house batteries with two 50-amp smart batteries - see http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/pro ... n-battery/

 

Lithium regulator from http://www.markgrasser.com/regulator.htm

 

Dual charge monitor - http://www.victronenergy.com/battery-mo ... 0bmv-602s/

 

Keep the alternator for now, but watch it closely in case the lithiums overload it - hopefully the new regulator will manage this though.

 

Would provide significant weight savings and improve overall efficiency. I'm not running a lot of extra electronics, so think this set-up has plenty of amps for my needs, particularly considering the charging efficiency.

 

Any thoughts on this setup?

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Well, no one else answered, so here is my take.

Lithium is still a rapidly developing area for batteries. IMO they are still "bleeding edge". They require internal electronics to maintain thermal stability, and failure of this system can, and does, result in fires. The new Airbus fleet was grounded due to this, and now their batts are in fireproof boxes! Several vessels every year are lost due to lithium batt fires, and, as yet, there are not that many boats fitted with them.

However, on the plus side, they are far more efficient re power from a given weight and space, and there re-charge capabilities are great.

There are multiple types of lithium batts - pure lithium, lithium-ion, lithium cobalt, lithium iron phosphate, lithium manganese, lithium iron magnesium. These are pretty much different ideas from different manufacturers, trying to sort out the problems with the current designs.

Each different type or brand may need a matched controller/regulator - be certain you have the right one!!!

It's probably best to get your batt supplier to provide the matched regulator.

If your current alternator is not of the hot rated type, it will not cope with the continuous full output the lithium bats can take...

Again, if your supplier is not telling you this, be VERY wary, it could cost you your boat!

You must weigh up the risk/benefits and decide what suits you. We'd appreciate a report back when you decide, and install your new DC power systems.

Good Luck!!

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I didn't comment because it sounded like Gb had done a fair amount of homework already by the look and the technology is so new and rare, there is probably not a great deal we can add. IT has it pretty much covered. The biggest thing on this technology is that it is changing rapidly, once again as IT has stated, the issues with Lithium have developers scrambling for the Golden Chalice of the Prefect Lithium battery. I had been trying to keep up with the technology, but there are now some 30 different forms of Lithium technology and the list is growing rapidly. It has become far too hard to keep up for just the fun of it.

Which by the way, means that most of the current technology currently available in NZ is now waaay behind what the rest of the world is up to.

Safety is one of the main concerns I have with the the things and I am not really sure they are going to get on top of it, simply because they are using Lithium. It is so highly reactive with the result in something going wrong being a severely reactive Fire. But, they are trying and I guess someone will solve it.

Maybe I can add something though. Firstly, I am assuming this is all about weight. I do assume you realise the cost with such an install. You must be really wanting that little extra if you are going to spend that kind of money.

What about reducing what you have down to the minimum required? Maybe you could have two small batteries for instance, when normal sailing/weekending and then you could remove one for a real important race.

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Thanks all for the feedback. Please note the following in respect to various points raised:

 

The batteries I referenced are lithium iron phosphate (LiFePo4), which from everything I read, are very safe. I'm not aware of any substantive basis for fire scare stories with respect to this type of battery, however unfortunately this seems to be a common misperception being perpetuated. Note that lead-acid batteries are not without risk - see http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/plus/530 ... o-avoid-it

 

The SmartBatteries are more expensive than the LiFePo4 batteries sold by AA Solar, but I also don't think they are comparable as I don't think the AA Solar have the same built in protection circuitry. If I were buying a large bank of batteries for offshore cruising, then the cost would be a much greater factor, but for a small two battery system, it seems to make sense in my case to pay a bit more to get a product that is more plug-n-play with built-in safeguards. Definitely open to ideas on this though as it would be easier to buy locally.

 

The regulator I referenced is specific for LiFePo4. I am also leaning towards a Balmar regulator that has a greater range of voltage adjustability. These regulators have a temperature sensor for the alternator to ensure it doesn't get overloaded by the higher loads common with LiFePo4.

 

If I removed a battery for selected races, the boat wouldn't be cat 3 compliant as I don't have manual start capability. Also, the house battery is pretty heavy to be loading and unloading. If it was only the weight savings, I would stick with lead, however the other advantages are significant.

 

Seems like the system and technology is pretty straightforward and simple to install and maintain. I'll repost if I end up proceeding, and am still interested in input.

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FLA (flooded lead acid) batteries are pretty safe. How many have you ever heard of exploding? You could also add that FLA's will give off huge clouds of Chlorine Gas when they go under water. But thst is also pretty rare occurrence.

Maker sure the Balmar controller can accept Lithium. Lithium is a completely different Voltage/cell structure and requires the correct charger for the job, or you will have problems and they could well be serious ones.

The main pluses with LiFePo Batts is that they maintain a linear charge till they are out of juice and then they drop off sharply. They have been around from about the beginning, so they are a known product and about the most robust of all. But in saying that, they are also the least advanced.

What I meant about the smaller lead Acids is, remove what you have and replace with minimum requirements for a race/Cat3. A smaller removable batt is not as difficult to remove either that way.

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Yep, as of now the LiFePo4 is probably the best pick of the lithium batts. Still, IMO, it's not worth it unless you have a hot rated alt, and a reg that is compatible with LiFePo4. Some of the Balmar ones are OK, depending on model....

Without the hot rated Alt, and with the correct Reg, the alt will just be restricted in output as it gets hot - kind of defeats the purpose??

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And one last thing. If you are going to spend that kind of Money, I suggest you go this way.

http://www.mastervolt.com/marine/products/li-ion/

One of the best in quality, tremendous experience in the field if lithium batts, latest in Li-ion technology, some of the best Electronics to control it all and they can design a complete system, give you the best information and an installed price.

Trust me, you do not want Chinese with this stuff. You either do it properly, or just forget about it.

Oh and seriously, talk to them about Fire Hazard/explosion risk and how their Batteries are safe guarded and differ from the Chinese stuff.

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I'm going off this place. Every time I have a good idea I come here to find why it's not so good, bugger!!!

 

So Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4), would be the current best in use verses weight option at the moment?

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To Glsssbead,

 

At this point in the battery cycle lithium* batteries as a whole aren't ready for black box use. If you are willing to build your own pack and BMS then go ahead, I would strongly advise you not to proceed with an off the shelf pack setup. Knowing and understanding the various failure modes of the cells and the systems that support it will make it a lot safer for you and your boat.

 

 

To Wheels,

 

Whilst the tech is changing and expanding it's mainly in to automotive area's which have vastly different considerations. Alot of the various chemistry's that are being researched have to do with prismatic alignment of the internal structure thus helping with energy density within molded cells.

 

Sure you have chem's like:

Cobalt which are high density but short lifespan

Maganese is interesting in that it has a lower density but gains in the current supply, A 10 amp hour cell can push 140+ amps

NCA which is great at density, current supply and lifespan but makes nitroglycerin look stable

etc etc

 

But these are all niche and specific, Maganese looks great for EV bikes and DIY EV cars but falls flat where space is an issue, Cobalt works well in your phone or camera but would you buy a boat who's batteries lasted 12-18 months?

 

The main contenders for marine are plain old lithium ion and Lithium Manganese Oxide (LiFePO4) in the pipeline you have Lithium Air, beyond that the various other configurations aren't in the marine scope (Yes I'm going to lump LiFeYPO4 in with LiFePO4)

 

Ion is on the way out for mainstream applications, Yes LiFePO4 is heavier AH for AH (10ah cell 0.75kg vs 0.5kg) but it's chemically more stable, Both still require more safety systems than lead acid but LiFePO4 fails alot safer than Li-Ion when these systems have faults.

 

Here is a physical impact failure of a typical 18650 Li-Ion

 

 

As you can see you have a near instant fire with flame's being pushed outwards by the expanding smoke/gas

 

Compare this to the same type of failure with a LiFePO4 cell

 

 

A little less scientific but still, from puncture to first signs of smoke is 10 seconds, No flames at all and the smoke isn't as "pressurized" as the Li-Ion.

 

 

I am honestly surprised anyone is pushing Li-Ion anymore for marine applications, You can wave "cheap chinese crap" around all you want but no matter how good your cells are and how fail safe you BMS is at the end of the day a Li-Ion cell is a fire hazard and a LiFePO4 cell is a smoke hazard

 

For the curious here are some more LiFePO4 packs being abused

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpQmc2IUobs

 

I would take the cheapest, Factory 3rd's crappy LiFePO4 cell over a state of the art high end Li-Ion cell anyday. The Boeing and Airbus fires? All Li-Ion packs in a configuration where the failure of a cell can and has caused thermal runway in the entire pack

 

Finally the price is always falling and nowdays it's not that much cash for cells, Take a 400ah FLA battery, 200ah usable for 50% DOD and 120kg ~$1000ish, The same 200ah of usable space in LiFePO4 is 240ah. Closest cell is 260ah so lets roll with that. 4 cells needed to make up a 12v equiv and that's ~$1500ish and only ~40KG in a 283x225x362 package vs 522x536x220

 

All in all a good value IF you are willing to get into it and learn, Otherwise even with a chemical stable battery like LiFePO4 you can still burn your money!

 

To Island Time,

 

You make very good points about the Alt setup and I really have to say that when changing anything in a power system (And I mean anything, cables, Alt's, Alt regulator, Batteries etc) you have to view the impact and changes needed to other systems. you can just move your 2kw Inverter from one side of the boat to the other without considering a increase in wiresize to compensate for voltage drop which has the flow on effect of needing new fuse sizing to protect the wire. Likewise changing the battery and battery charger to something that can slurp a heck more current without considering the charging source can at best just damage something quickly or at worst start a fire

 

I do disagree that the Lithium battery tech anyone marine would be talking about are bleeding edge tho, LiFePO4 have been around commercially for over 10 years now, Li-Ion even more. The mechanics and chemistry behind them is well known, The latest tweak to LiFePO4 is the use of yttrium for cold environments and extending shelf life. The widespread use of LiFePO4 in hobbies such as RC and EV's is a good indicator that Li-Ion and LiFePO4 tech is in the maturity phase

 

Given time and people willing to learn Li tech and safety will become ingrained in peoples minds like FLA and the hydrogen hazard and LPG and the pooling gas/heavier than air hazard

 

 

Anyway thats just my 2c :)

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I kid you not, but there is a company that makes Anti-gravity batteries. OK, so it is there trade name, not an actual Anti-gravity battery. Darn it :wink:

The lightest Lithium is the Lithium Air battery. But I don't know if anyone sells them in NZ and no idea of cost. They use Lithium on one terminal and Oxygen at the other. It has the highest charge capacity/Ahr/weight of anything else on the market. In fact the energy per weight is said to be the same as Petrol, which had been the Holy Grail of achievement for many years. The fact it uses Oxygen means it can get that directly from the Air around and so it does not have to carry any Chemical substance to create the flow of electrons.

I have no idea if there are any safety concerns with it though.

Another idea is to do what a young Lad tried recently. Apparently he stole and collected a large number of Smoke Alarms and then went about taking the Radioactive substance out of the units and collecting it all together. His intention was to make a mini Nuclear Reactor in his Parents Kitchen and solve all their Energy needs. :roll:

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I got a bridge you can use as a battery :P

 

One wonders how old one must be to consider 1996 recent? Li-Air is consider the holy grail, You can't buy them yet tho as the tech is still in the lab and the big guy pushing it (IBM) but has recently been looking into Sodium-Air tech aswell. Both are quite some way away as they require nanowire production at scale

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Beccara, thanks,all good info. Are you in the battery business?? Your knowledge level is obviously higher than mine!

All things considered, I think, if I was replacing my house bank now, they would be sealed AGM hybrids again, or gels.

Unlikely to cause a problem, well understood, and simple....

Lithium based units, for me, are too complex and uncommon in the marine market at this time...

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Work with remote sites that are very hard to access, chopper only in winter, experienced quad bike only in summer so we keep a close eye on space/weight tech :)

 

We mainly use AGM at the moment but only after burning a dozen units getting the charge controller sorted out. The PITA about gel is you can blow a hole in the glass mat, They are very good handling wise as they can take a quad roll ;)

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The answer surely is the famous "Flux Capacitor" (see back to future); seriously though, anyone thought of using "super capacitors" as batteries, maybe not for offshore as they probably wont hold charge very long, but for short racing should be ideal; light, safe & and reasonably maintenance free.

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Heh, just dont EVER get a short. Super Cap's will dump the entire charge in 0.1sec. They are heavy as well, A Maxwell 2.8v 3400 Farad cell is 520g, Math'ing seems to be hard for me right now (Thanks DST) but thats around 1-2ahr

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Yes the physical size of a Capacitor to get the capacity becomes huge and it tends to be the bigger the Capacity, the less efficiency in holding the Charge. They are only really of any good for extremely hard and fast dumping of current and loading of current. Like a Dynamo Braking system in something like an Electric Vehicle. Huge capacitors are currently being played with in relation to trying to capture a Lightening Bolt, then controlled discharging into the Battery Bank. We are talking units the size of a large Bunnings/Mega10 store.

 

Beccarra, if you happen to work for Chorus, you may have known a close friend of mine, Daniel Seabrook. He used to look after the Top of the South Remote sites. He ha just taken up a new Position with NEC and they fly him all over the country doing work.

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