Lifelines change again???

[Guest]

ISAF is now looking at banning fibre line lines due to a couple of failures. With YNZ's seemingly blind following of everything ISAF says I'm sure it's only a matter of time before we also are required to step back in time.

 

As I predicted a couple of years ago on this very subject, the Regs as they were written, and still are, will inevitably lead to the very failures being seen. Like many Regs they are too open to interpretation meaning people will be using product that 'sort of' fits the Regs. There's lots of fibre lifelines out there a motherload weaker and prone to failure than the users realise but they do 'sport of' fit some interpretations of the Regs. They sort of look right so it's hard for a Inspector to know what they have yet at the same time say 'Sorry dude, they are not up to speed, fix them'. Not to mention some of the spooky terminations we've seen are a little beyond scary.

 

So it looks like we'll be back to old school wire soon as the sports administrators have yet to realise if you give a yachtie a vague idea you'll get a vague result, as we saw back a while with the plastic anchor chain, plywood anchors, polystyrene motors and etc that did unintentionally fit the Regs at the time. Also if you don't enforce any rules and people will get sloppy. I also think some of the powers that be are of a vintage that has yet to realise Manila rope isn't state of the art anymore and hasn't been for many many decades. Add in the situation where business can make changes to and/or heavily influence the Regs and that'll always lead to things being screwed in someones favour usually at the expense of all the end users i.e you and me, and things don't bode well.

 

 

 

And while here, you Y88's and others better watch for the Reg change that's changing a word from 'Should' to 'Shall'. As in your 'lifelines shall not deflect more than 50mm' meaning they can't. The Regs currently say 'should' which can be read as a guide. That could be good for a protest or 2.

[SeaEagleii 1]

Lmao

[dkd 3]

Read this one with interest as I am in process of fitting Dyneema lifelines and new black stanchions to the old "Trainsmash".. (has new name)

 

So sitting at console in Engineroom went on a search and this is the latest (that I could find) release from ISAF ... basically concerned and looking

 

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ ... lWPReport-[17571].pdf

 

interesting read, but still going to fit the Dyneema with lots of attention to chafe points and the splices.

 

David

[Guest]

Concur dkd, I'm still fitting dyneema but then I'll be using a very different rope to you and what most do. One I argue fits the current Regs where most being used doesn't meaning a lot are substandard in terms of the Regs and in actual use.

 

That is what's lead to this ISAF rethink from what I can tell, poorly written, understood and implemented Regs leading to bpats having a guess at what to use and picking the wrong options. From the way YNZ's are written it's obvious they were done by someone with only very basic knowledge of the gear they wrote about. I reckon YNZ only copied and pasted them as they are written in European rope speak and not using NZ terminology.

 

I've tried to get something from YNZ on this to see how they read the Regs but I can't even get an acknowledgement YNZ is even still open and operating.

 

What I would say though dkd is if you need a 4mm rope get one that has 4mm of dyneema/spectra/UHMWPE in it. Fitting a 4mm covered braid means your strength is less than 1/2 also with some of the imported ropes using chineema they could break at a very low load, down at maybe only 100kg. Sure they may fit the rules but is that going to help you at 2am behind Barrier when you need them to work, Nope. Look after yourself 1st then worry about the Regs.

 

I did a study on lifelines a couple of years ago which look at wire verse fibre and all the associated gear. It was interesting and did showed most lifelines are a lot weaker then their owners think they are. The biggest area of concern is the lashings. Many have good lashings.... or they were when fitted 8 years ago but after many seasons of use and sun some failed at very low loads. I sneaked around a couple of marinas and swapped out some boats lashings so I could test the pre-loved gear. Funnily enough I don't think even one boat has noticed they have had their lashings replaced

[Black Panther 1,586]

Before a long passage I used to stand on the lifelines and jump up and down. Seemed a reasonable practical test to me.

[John B 106]

The last ocean passage I did the boat had just been retrofitted with dyneema lifelines , didn't like it one bit.

[Black Panther 1,586]

What didn't you like?

[John B 106]

Soft stuff going through hard stuff, I thought they would fray over time. A LOT more thought needed to be given to how they went through the stanchions.

[dkd 3]

Hi Knot me,

interesting your comment "I'm still fitting dyneema but then I'll be using a very different rope to you and what most do. One I argue fits the current Regs where most being used doesn't meaning a lot are substandard in terms of the Regs and in actual use."

 

Curious as to what you are intending on using, youngest son being sailmaker is usually up to date with what to use, so am curious.

 

Always open to ideas .... is becoming interest post especially others thoughts.

 

David

[Kiteroa 8]

This is crap. I made the call to go fibre & composite pretty early on with my lines on Wild Thing. Although at the time, I did get Fineline to make a special line specifically to be used for this application. I don’t own the boat anymore but the lines are still going strong and the new owner has full faith in them. We’ve both had to rely on those fibre lines and composite stanchions during some pretty dangerous slips. I found with the flexible but strong composite stanchions and the dynex lines, injury was hugely reduced when taking a big fall directly onto the lines, say falling from the windward side of the cockpit to the leeward rail. But if you do a shoddy enough job with any material you’re bound to have a failure. The minimal guidelines for fibre lines were a result of a lack of understanding on ISAF’s part. A step backwards in my opinion. At least with a fibre line you can see when degradation is there. Wire just snaps with very little warning.

[Guest]

This is the one I'm using dkd. http://www.armare.it/dettaglio-prodotto.php?identificatore=350 There is a fair bit in use in NZ already and so far its proved fine. What's more we even make the ducks nuts of 4x4 winching competition winch ropes from it. Those guys are ruffer than a ruff thing and they still have problems rogering the rope so if they can do what they do to it then I'm more than happy to fit it as my lifelines.

 

I totally agree WT. The issues are being cause by sloppy writing of the Regs and then poor implementation and/or explanation of them. You can't blame Rangi Average Boater for the cock ups due to said sloppiness. But surely common sense says look for sharp sh*t when you are fitting fibre to anything so as sloppy as the Regs are some people who did the fitting probably also need a kick in the arse for not taking the simple step of checking for said sharp sh*t.

 

Hence the Regs can get stuffed as I'm still gonna use fibre as I know that for me it is the smarter and safer option. I can also, in fact already have, prove that to YNZ. But that is specific to using the rope noted above.

 

But if I was a cruiser I'd still fit wire.

 

Soft stuff going through hard stuff, I thought they would fray over time. A LOT more thought needed to be given to how they went through the stanchions.

Just out of interest next time you're in Westhaven have a suss on the end of some of the fingers where the pick-up lines have been run so they run over the large steel brackets around the piles. You'll see some have been sawn nearly in 1/2 by simple 6mm polyester old school rope. It's quite amazing to see how some soft stuff has nailed the hard stuff the way it has. I've seen the same thing happen on steel mooring hooks that have been sawn in 2 by the rope on them.

[Guest]

A lot of the NZ change to fibre was as a result of the increase in wire diameter requirements. Which I saw as a comfort / visibility change, rather than safety.

I posted a few years ago that the fibre need anti chafe protection which in my view was a casing. Others left that open to intepretation.

The biggest issue with people chhanging out from wire to fibre was the stanchion heads not being compatible with fibre. One of the most popular has a small tube, and while it worked well for stiffer wire, it creates a wear issue on fibre.

[John B 106]

The biggest issue with people chhanging out from wire to fibre was the stanchion heads not being compatible with fibre. One of the most popular has a small tube, and while it worked well for stiffer wire, it creates a wear issue on fibre.

Exactly , that was the issue I saw.

[Tim C 23]

Let's not forget the risk with SS lifelines incased in wire is that they can be rusting in the low part of the sag, and one day fail. Even if the end in the sun look fine, the middle can be rusting.

YNZ doesn't (in theory) allow white plastic life line covers for this reason. But no-one much wants bare wire to hang on to as they go forward.

So there is no easy solution of simply going back to wire, as that solution isn't ideal either...

[Guest]

Just about to tackle replacing my life lines so this makes for interesting reading.

On board now are of a unknown age and the plastic cover has had its day in parts.

I have inspected the wire where I can access it and redone the lashings regularly .

These lines have in certain times have held my welfare in their hands and so I am off to jump up and down on them, thanks BP.

As a non racer but cruiser I have long considered a full stainless tube top rail life line system the most safe and durable.

Not every bodies aesthetic cup of tea I know but the boats I have sailed on with tube have added a definite sureness of stability to travelling up and down the deck in all conditions.

The extra added weight and windage and cost is all a personal issue.

The continuous plastic sleeved stainless wire has in my experience a durable life span of around 10 years or so before replacement is required and being able to simply re run crimp and lash it is a very user friendly and cost efficient system.

The Dyneema appeals also but like JB I too have yet to see the chafe issue where the product passes through the stanchion adequately addressed.

If the stanchion is of sufficient diameter it could be sleeved and secured with product.

This is a polyester anti chafe sleeve fitted to Amstel and although very neat but a little beyond my skill level.

[Guest]

What's been done in that photo is easy enough to do Priscilla and I'm sure it would only take you a couple of minutes to get into it. But the photo does show a NOT legal lifeline in the eyes of YNZ or at least the people YNZ copy and pasted that section from. The Regs state 'with sheath' which is European speak for what we call a double braid i.e. a core braid of something flash overbraided with something else so that lifeline is legal thru the stanchion and 50mm odd either side, the rest isn't. But lines like that are common and I've yet to hear anyone getting pinged for it. Personally I think a key person in YNZ doesn't understand that part of the Regs but then they also don't communicate at all when asked for clarification so how the hell would know what they think the Regs say or want they want them to accomplish.

 

If I was a cruiser my top lifeline would still be wire. Plastic coated if I thought that was better for the boat. Yes that's not legal either but again no one gets pinged. There are a few highish profile boats racing and more going splash each day with the very bonded wire that causes the issues. At least most plastic coated wire in use just has tube on it and isn't the bonded.

[Guest]

Thanks for that KM.

Might need to sharpen a fid or two for a trial.

The other concern I have about the Dyneema setup is the wear that would come from tying and untying fenders and the use of cable ties to secure items such as side covers etc.

Sleeved wire seems to be quite forgiving so how does the Dyneema compare.

So is anything legal at all according to YNZ?

Anybody from this publicly funded organisation care to comment.

[rigger 47]

FWIIW - might be worth looking at how Samson deals with chaff on mooring lines (Amsteel blue) - they state a life of 10years for mooring lines as long as regular maintenance (incl the bitts the line comes in contact with) is carried out and the right chaff gear is used.

[Guest]

So is anything legal at all according to YNZ?

Yes, it's all about how you interoperate the Regs... and not just the lifelines one.

 

The Regs say a fancy core with a sheath, note the 'with a sheath' ('cover' in our speak), that is important. The size to be the same as it was for wire. So that could mean say a 930 which has to have 4mm wire could use -

- 4mm wire

- A 4mm double braid but the core is only 2-3mm by the time you take the cover out of it all.

- A double braid with a core the same size as the wire i.e 4mm then the sheath will make that closer to 6mm finished.

- a double braid again but with a fancy core and fancy cover that total 4mm.

 

The question I've asked and have had no response at all in any form was - Is the 4mm the finished size or the size of the load member part only?

 

Using what I know of rope, rope terminology and wire and assuming ISAF don't want weaker lines than are the current norm, I reckon what they are trying to say is you can replace the 4mm wire with a 4mm load member of a fancy fibre then put a cover over that for protection. So I see the interoperation as being only one of the bottom 2 options mentioned above. The 2nd option will mean a big decrease in strength and durability.

 

The '4mm' can be replaced with whatever size the

 

So Priscilla I'd say for you to go with option 3. Pick a core the same size as the Regs ask for and go with that. It'll also give you a bit of a gruntier cover for doing stuff on like your fenders etc. You could go the last option and it is by far the sexist one and strongest but it's also the most pricey.

 

There is nothing in the rules or I can think of that says you can't put that white (usually) lifeline hose over a fibre lifeline.

[Deep Purple 511]

There is nothing in the rules or I can think of that says you can't put that white (usually) lifeline hose over a fibre lifeline.

 

I did that. Ran the fibre lifelines without it for a while but it didn't sit well through the larger stanchion loops and headsails didn't like it. Popped the white plastic tube over the top and good as gold. The lower lifeline sits snug in the smaller holes so no problem there