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Barker and Dalton should go.


Guest Ketchup

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I agree with all your comments Smithy re the AC, but I was curious about your suggestion a few posts back that "Laser fleets are rubbish, but they are probably the exception" - we had 153 sailors at the Nationals in Takapuna a few weeks back, with a really strong turnout from Youth sailors, so I would say the class is actually in great health.

Sorry Richard. Throw away line. I find that the weekend Laser fleets are well down on what they were in the early 90s. The Nationals had big numbers but only around 30 (?) in the open fleet? We used to get 120 regularly. Not sure I like the splitting of the masters and open fleets. It used to be fun to get beaten up by Doug Bates from time to time, just to keep you humble! The small fleet start lines don't help our top guys either. easy to get a good start in a 30 boat fleet, not so easy with 100 boats and 1/2 doz hopefuls barging the committee boat! The biggest fleet was radial wasn't it?

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Yeah no question the weekend fleets aren't what they were, but I think that probably goes for most classes.  Possible also that they are more spread around the various clubs.  The splitting of masters and open fleets has probably allowed numbers for the regattas to remain as high as they are, but there is still a pretty wide range of ages in masters so not difficult to have a humbling moment occasionally! And yes, our individual fleet sizes aren't great for Worlds or Olympic practice, but hasn't seemed to hinder the top guys.

I agree with your observations about the amount of depth in our Olympic fleets, and some real medal chances there - the shame of it all is that we are sending them off to race in a sewer, and I hope none of them lose a possible medal from collisions with discarded furniture, or get seriously crook from mixing with floaters.

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Agreed Richard. I hope (but doubt) Rio clean up their water before the Olympics, but it's not looking good. personally, I would rather see the Masters sail with the open fleet and have their results split off. It is nice to be able to see how close the old farts can get to the young guns. I shouldn't really be commenting as I am just an armchair observer. I'd love to have a crack at lasers again... Too many irons and not enough time.. One day perhaps. :thumbup:  :thumbup:

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I thought the old farts were right there with the open fleet.

Nah. Separate start, separate fleet. Only the brave old farts race with the open fleet.. Open fleet was only around 30 boats. Separate radial fleet, separate masters fleet. Correct me if I'm wrong RB. Best old fart was Dean Drummond. 10th in the laser worlds last time they were in Taka and 15th in the open fleet 2015 Nationals. Not bad for (I'm guessing) 90kg Master in a lightish nationals..

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Yes, separate fleets, and the Open fleet is indeed only for the brave! Dean did do well as it was generally light airs. Am not sure but we may be mixing it up between Open/Masters at the Auckland Laser Champs at Tamaki this weekend, precursor to Sail Auckland so should be a good fleet with a few overseas sailors here.  Tamaki has a late model Laser for charter on a daily rate for regattas or club days if you ever want to jump back in Smithy! Think it's taken for this weekend and Sail Akl though.

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Guest Ketchup

Funny how you guys can drag this thread 'ÔFF TOPIC" and not be "pulled up on it"

 

Where are you IT...."insert roll eyes here"

 

Smithy, would you keep an "key employee" who has failed to meet their targets for 13 years???

 

You keep avoiding this question. And I suspect it is because it compromises your "love of Barker" versus his " massive losing record"

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Guest Ketchup

As I keep saying... we are all sponsors thanks to the Govt funding this team.

 

As such I am a sponsor just like you are.

 

I am Not happy and I believe most kiwis do not want to be involved in the next AC.

 

Also who said the Sponsors are happy and which ones?

 

It appears some people here spin the truth to suit their position on this.

 

Sponsors do not run the team. They fund it for a fiscal return for their brand. that happens whether ETNZ wins or takes another dorking.

What Kiwis want and what people with a ounce of pride want is for ETNZ to win.

 

After all ETNZ has the initials NZ in its name. Thus this so called

Private team is making out that it represents NZ.

 

Sooo... as a sponsor and a NZ'r I want to win. Not second, not last, but win.

 

With Chokers like Dalton and Barker ths will not happen. I predicted it twice before and I will be proven right again.

 

You few, who object to this, may accept mediocrity, losers, and the fact these guys are taking your money under the false "guise" that they are representing NZ sailing. But in reality you are just fooling yourselfs and buying into the fraud that this team is.

 

Finally, most kiwis would rather see their money spent In better ways. A few yachties ( with possible links to Barker/Dalton) on this site defend him in this forum but have never fronted with good reasons.

 

As for who to replace them with....

Well if you took the time to read my posts I have already identified the best people to replace these two chokers.

 

IT, try to be more consistent with thread drift. Or have the "minority got your ear"!

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Yep, there was a bit of thread drift, but at least is was about sailing and both civil and interesting, so I let it ride. Back to topic.

As we have all said before, the govt money was more an investment or load than a gift, and has been repaid.

The sponsors that are happy - the ones that have resigned of course. Which I believe is most of them, if not all.

This has all been said in this thread earlier. Do you have anything (new) to add, or should this thread be put to bed? 

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So Ketchup seems to be hung up on the KPI that Barker and Dalton had of winning the Americas Cup. I am presuming he has knowledge of their individual contracts and therefore is certain that is what their employer is measuring them against.

 

The question he is posing is whether they should go or not, my view is that they did do a dam good job, did they make mistakes, in hindsight yes, and thats all you can judge against unpess of course you were in the room when the decsions were made and can share the exact reasonin, even then mistakes can still be made.

 

Should they go, well as it has been pointed out they are a private team, not an elected team, so the decision is best made by their bosses. And yes they have used public money, unfortunately we dont get a big say in how the government spends our taxes so why is this any different.

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Well put Graham.

As for the public money - I don't for one moment believe ETNZ told the government "Give us thirty mill and we'll win the cup".

Government went in eyes wide open and from all accounts got good value.

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Funny how you guys can drag this thread 'ÔFF TOPIC" and not be "pulled up on it"

 

Where are you IT...."insert roll eyes here"

 

Smithy, would you keep an "key employee" who has failed to meet their targets for 13 years???

 

You keep avoiding this question. And I suspect it is because it compromises your "love of Barker" versus his " massive losing record"

I guess the thread drift is more interesting than the initial topic. I would also like to point out that YOU Ketchup started the thread drift by saying that our Dinghy classes were falling off and had no depth.. Thread drift nevertheless. Humble apologies.

 

As someone else has mentioned here, what were Dean and Dalt's targets? Do you know? I don't. You keep mentioning KPIs but never state them. I pointed out a long list of achievements as to why I thought they had achieved the vast majority of their targets, and deserved to stay, but you seem to prefer to let the needle skip again and again. BORING.

 

The topic was "Barker and Dalton should go". I say NO. I have given good reasons why not. Pretty damn simple.

 

Let me put it in another way. Say Fonterra have an ultimate goal of being the biggest dairy company in the world. For 20 years they have tried, but are only world #2 to Nestle. Faaak!! Sack all the directors. make them walk the main street self- flagellating and dressed in sackcloth.

 

I guess it's whether you want to celebrate success or denigrate a team for failure. The old half empty or half full scenario. Add to that, you, in your various guises have always slagged ETNZ, and these two in particular. I really don't know why. Maybe you had a crush on Mandy Smith at some stage, and got beaten to the alter? I dunno, but there is certainly a theme that stretches back long before San Fransisco..

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Guest Ketchup

smithy, I have mentioned their KPI's. They are not hidden or secret and they are all similar between all AC teams.

 

Their main team target is to win. Through various stages. Then there is individual targets.

 

They have given it three attempts, over more than a decade doing the same thing with the same people for the same result - HELLO/Bingo! Is that not the definition of Madness!

 

AT least Fonterra have grown and won business in that period!.

 

Your Fonterra example is not that same. Fonterra is a business that has to earn a income for it shareholders 24/7 forever. ETNZ has a defined Campaign life. fomterra has shareholders with teeth and demand growth, evolution, change, and to win more business. ETNZ have one target and have failed at every attempt, spent all the money, have been under resourced, and over payed. What a ratshit business that is. Fail to obtain your target, under resourced, overpayed, and now fiscally challenged. MY corner dairy is a better business than ETNZ!

 

Most importantly Fonterra change their CEO's and top management often to grow change and insure their is no complacencey and there is fresh and innovative thinking!... it keeps them honest and ensures there are no issues with "empire building" and Ego centric domination... Bingo!

 

Most of all fonterra are number one in NZ and in mAny world markets. They have risen from nothing in 20 years, changed all the Management that failed to perform through that period and have not stuck with locals to run the business. In fact the last couple of CEO's are from another country.

 

Managers in Fonterra that fail their KPI,s (let's say Tarkets) are either re trained, re deployed but most are moved on.

 

Smithy, I want to celebrate a team. I celebrate Burling not Barker, Coutts (our greatest sailor) not Dalton, the All Blacks, not the Warriors... I celebrate winners.

 

I do not denegrate ETNZ. I question Dalton and Barker as leaders/sailors at the AC level.

 

I also question why no process is put in place to "call for other people to apply for these positions" ,...'just for the simple reason as to see who is out there and what they offer. That to me says its a closed shop and not open to challenge, innovation, change and plain old simple "integrity"

 

For me there are many prime candidates world wide that would do a better job than D and B.

 

Why would you not open the door and see what comes in?

 

And forget the "Dalton gets all the money argument". Other great CEO's have more links to sponsorship than Dalton "may Have".

 

By the way. I admire that you have the nads to debate with me as opposed to many others who sit on the side lines or "snipe" around the edges with off topoc rubbish. Good on you! :-)

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smithy, I have mentioned their KPI's. They are not hidden or secret and they are all similar between all AC teams.

 

Their main team target is to win. Through various stages. Then there is individual targets.

Could you please list the document(s) to which are you referring?

Or are these KPIs something you have arrogated to yourself to assign ETNZ?

 

( An aside - the whole concept of a KPI is a cop-out, derived as far as I can tell from the management truism "If you can't measure it, you can't manage it".

Which in turn seems to have come out of the school of thought which believes management is a science in and of itself, and doesn't actually require any subject matter expertise. IT projects are typically encumbered with numbers of these parasites, and their equally useless ally, the Business Analyst... )

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Guest Ketchup

Could you please list the document(s) to which are you referring?

Or are these KPIs something you have arrogated to yourself to assign ETNZ?

 

( An aside - the whole concept of a KPI is a cop-out, derived as far as I can tell from the management truism "If you can't measure it, you can't manage it".

Which in turn seems to have come out of the school of thought which believes management is a science in and of itself, and doesn't actually require any subject matter expertise. IT projects are typically encumbered with numbers of these parasites, and their equally useless ally, the Business Analyst... )

Oh! You have a voice niw,. how about an opinion Bannari?

 

Sorry buddy but you can't "put your oar In" now without having an opinion as I requested 35 posts ago.

 

Your latest post is just trolling.

 

Grow some nads like smithy and have an opinion!

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The most foremost KPI Ive ever had in every job Ive taken is . . . .

 

1. Stay employed

 

On that basis, Baker and Dalts have succeeded 100%

Well that is correct! If they took that "survival attitude to the AC then ...?
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Oh! You have a voice niw,. how about an opinion Bannari?

 

Sorry buddy but you can't "put your oar In" now without having an opinion as I requested 35 posts ago.

 

Your latest post is just trolling.

 

Grow some nads like smithy and have an opinion!

Ignoring the insult, I take that to mean your so-called KPIs don't actually exist. Game over.

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