More boat buying advice

[TonyB 1]

I am going through the process of looking for a first keeler for cruising. I've been told by someone that a rough rule of thumb in today's market is to subtract a third off the asking price to make a reasonable offer (before subtracting for work required). What do others reckon? Any guidance on what is a "fair offer"?

[Kevin McCready 83]

Same as in all markets - you have to know the sale prices of similar goods.

 

Problem in boatie world is cultural reluctance to say what you paid or sold a boat for - reminds me of arab horse traders doing finger negotiations under a blanket. I don't have such reluctance; so for the record I bought an Easterly 30 a few months ago - there were about four or five on the market in NZ at the time at an average asking price of $37k. I got mine for $20. It's a damn good boat and I want to record my thanks to a realistic and helpful vendor if he reads this. He looked after it beautifully for many years and now I regard it as my responsibility to do justice to the boat also by keeping it in tip top condition and improving it where needed. Because the price was good I didn't go down the path of negotiating for cost of what needed doing - sails, hull and engine were acceptable; electrics weren't to marine standard and some nav lights not working but owner had meticulous records - often a good sign.

 

At the moment it's a buyers' market. Offer VERY low and see what you come up with.

 

Another rule of thumb, brokers generally will want ridiculous prices. I'd subtract 1/2 or more and be prepared to walk away and keep looking. Sorry broker friends.

 

Good luck! What sort of boat are you look for and why that type?

[TonyB 1]

Thanks for the advice Kevin. I've looked at six H28s over the last month and have found a huge difference between the boats which have been looked after and the ones (unfortunately the majority it seems) which have run down and then are done up for sale. I've been looking at H28s as the association is really supportive to a new owner and it's an absolute must that my first keeler be something that is reasonably sedate so my partner can enjoy the experience. We've done enough sailing together (in a Noelex 25) to discover she doesn't enjoy a sporty boat when the wind gets up! Speed is not the issue. Cruising is what we enjoy.

I've noticed a few Easterly 30s on TM and wondered about them. Based on your example they're within our reach. Any advice about how you've found your boat would be eagerly received!

[unpc 5]

I am not sure that there are many boats that are a bargain at least some time after purchase.

.Sure sometimes a keen seller will take a loss.

However the idea that you can knock a third off and then get all the bits fixed is not rational for two reasons. Firstly if it were perfect it would be priced accordingly. Secondly most boats require work or maintenance at any one time. Sometimes this is elbow grease and sometimes things which are not economic but not essential..

It may appear that one boat is cheaper than another. However what happens when you factor in the need for replacement sails, or that the motor is near the end of its economic life? These things cost big money as do cumulatively most boat things.

Probably mostly you get what you pay for more or less assuming you know what you are doing or have expert advice. Even a good survey is not cheap though it may well be worth it

[Kevin McCready 83]

I decided I wanted what I thought would be a solid safe boat capable of withstanding a storm if I ever got into one. I now know that the Easterly 30 would need a bit more work and some mods to bring it up to Cat 1 and bring it up to where I'd be happy - but that's another story. For around the Gulf and for single day dashes along the coast I'd probably go for another type of boat now, more modern.

 

Anyway, I looked pretty seriously for a year or more and made serious offers on three other boats, but we couldn't agree on a price. Then on the Easterly we came to a price pretty quickly.

 

I'd be a little wary of the "you get what you pay for" meme. Again, like in all markets, there will be a normal curve with some deals being done at the low price end of the curve and others at the high end, with the bulk in the middle. Most of us want to be at the low end of the curve when buying, unless we see the absolute boat of our dreams and have to have it; though letting emotion into the equation probably isn't good. My philosophy is know the market and know your price and be ready to more quickly when the boat you want comes up.

 

For negotiation skills I strongly recommend "Getting to Yes:  Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In, Roger Fisher, Bruce M. Patton, William L. Ury, New York: Penguin Books, 1981, 1983, Fisher, Ury and Patton 1991" I'd urge you to share it with the person you're negotiating with too. Basically the message is win-win and play it pretty open about what you want and expect (the old story about two people fighting over an orange when it turns out one wanted it for juice and the other for the skin to make marmalade, if only they'd known). Fisher et al say principled negotiation provides a better way of reaching good agreements. Their four principles are 1) separate the people from the problem; 2) focus on interests rather than positional bargains (haggling); 3) generate a variety of options for mutual gain before settling on an agreement; and 4) insist that the agreement be based on objective criteria.

 

If you're going for an inboard engine, then that will be one of the largest costs. So I recommend Nigel Calder's book "Marine Diesel Engines: Maintenance, Troubleshooting, and Repair". It has a good section on how to assess a marine engine. But if you're at the beginning of the learning curve it's not easy going - despite Nigel's claim for simplicity. He and his editors really needed a keen novice like me to help him edit the book, though it's easily the best I've seen.

 

I also made sure I looked at the boat out of the water to check for osmosis. I told the owner that's what I wanted and he invited me up to have a look when he was on the grid one day. I also wanted a dry boat and made sure I looked during a rainy period and ran my hand pretty much over every inch of the hull on the inside that I could get to, taking up the boards and checking the bilge  - again the owner was good with this and I found a sweet layer of dry dust in the bilges which was welcome after my last boat. Another owner flat out refused so I walked away. And if you're doing sea trials I recommend a blowy day so you can dip the rails in and take a few waves. I've since found out I have a couple of leaks under the toe rail (though I knew that was on the repair list). Finally, and you've probably done this already, find out the particular weaknesses in the particular model you're looking at - chainplates, window leaks, osmosis, movement in bulkheads, rudder bearings, bonding of toe rails - whatever - most owner's associations will know what often needs work.

 

I've been in a Noelex 25 in 40 knots (though not big seas and only downwind and reach) and it was fine. So I'm not sure why you say "sporty" is not OK and there are more sporty boats than the Noelex 25 I think? Again though, your experience is greater than mine in it. Has your partner been in a H28 on the sort of day when the Noelex wouldn't be considered suitable? My wife is a fair weather sailor so I think I know where you might be coming from, but not sure your proposed solution will be ideal.

 

You're welcome to have a look and a sail in my Easterly if you think it would help. I'm moored in Okahu Bay Auckland.

[Island Time 1,214]

IMO the purchase price is not the most important issue, unless you are going to be only a short term owner. Maintenance over multiple years will cost as much (say ten years) as buying the boat if you keep her in good order. It's worth paying a bit more for one in the best order you can find. Yes, you want to pay a fair price, but especially these older boats under say 50K, maintenance will be the largest bill over time. 

 

There is the world of difference between an h28 and a noelex 25 in 50 knots, but neither will be exactly comfortable at sea in these conditions.

 

Just one further point about Cat 1. If you spend say 30K on a boat and want to get Cat 1, I'd be very surprised if you don't end up spending significantly more than that purchase price again before you are ready to go.

 

After we bought Island Time, which was the tidiest suitable boat we could find in our price range, we spent a further 60K on her before Cat 1 and being ready to leave for our first offshore experience. That was 15 years ago.

There are VERY few instances of boats making financial sense. You will almost certainly not get back the money you invest on the boat and it's care. If you want to have a sound investment, don't buy a boat! For me, the costs/losses are worth it, and accepted.

 

Good luck on your search!

[SthnJeff 18]

Just to add my ten cents worth being a fairly recent purchaser of a boat in the "old and cheap" category.

 

Almost a year ago I found and purchased a Raven 26 which following a haul out and survey, I offered around 75% of the asking price, meaning I secured Tandara for $11k.

 

The survey revealed a few things needing to be done such as standing  rigging replacement within a couple of years, Antifoul, running rigging replacement, a few issues with the electronics and decks being in need of a coat of paint within a year or so etc. I was also aware the sails probably only had a couple of years left, particularly the mainsail.

 

So far I have done the running rigging, antifoul, some of the electronics have been sorted, with the standing rigging beng replaced this autumn at a cost of around $2k, All this coupled with all the other small bits and pieces that you inevitably purchase to kit yourself out means I have spent or committed to spend in the next few months, in the region of $5k. The new main and eventually genoa will be in the region of $4k I guess so by the time a couple of years have rolled around (3 years from purchase) it is pretty safe to say I will have spent close to the purchase price again.

 

Tandara is about 40 years old and for her age was in very good condition, was considered to be ready to go and was by no means considered a "project".

 

I am something of a perfectionist and like things to look and be right and at the end of all this will have probably one of the best little Ravens running around (imo anyway!) but it shows how easy it is to spend a lot of dosh after the fact when you purchase an older boat.

 

Would I change what I have done??? No chance!!! I have loved every minute of owning Tandara! 

[John B 106]

This sort of logic is crazy . If someone has put a fair market price on a boat  you should bargain him down by 33 %, blanket rule ?  what about savvy sellers who put their price up by 1/2 just to forestall buyers who work like that?

 

Nope thats not reasonable or fair. You have to evaluate the individual boat , establish where it is in the range of the boat fleet for condition , engine and what it has with it , and pay a price that reflects that. H28's have a  strong association and they'll all know which boats are up there and which aren't . Join the association and start talking to people.

 Capital purchase price isn't the be all and end all anyway, you can spend a fortune on new sails and equipment , or not , the boat you look at might have all that.

[John B 106]

I'm with you John. A buyer that arbitrarily writes down the value of a boat by 33% without even seeing it sounds like a time waster to me.

 

If someone comes with the attitude "Hey look, I'm interested in your boat but it's $xxx dearer than similar ones on the market, why is yours better?" will get a fair hearing, but "Hey before I look will you knock off a third?" won't get far.

 Yes SD, and the ones that ring up and offer less without even seeing what you have  there, I cant be bothered with them...makes me feel like educating them in sex and travel .

 

 At least have a proper look before you start bargaining eh. I mean you might be looking at a boat at the top of the class threshold , but which has  equipment on it in excess of the difference in value to the next boats down.( or have a proper osmosis job in the CV.)

[John B 106]

\

Not speaking from the experience of ever making a mistake buying a boat, I can say that whatever you pay for a boat its only the down payment The real costs start after you paid the negotiated purchase price.

You have a habit of leaving them rather better than you found them though eh.

 

 See , there's a classic case , motorbike sells a boat , queue up and pay the asking price!!

[SthnJeff 18]

The offer I made was based on my assessment of other Ravens that were on the market at the time, what I new needed attention and the fact I could compete the transaction quickly. An Arbitary figure just does not work on sale negotiation imo. It is very possible to turn off the Vendor. If you are not paying the full price on anything, you need some valid reasons otherwise you have little negotiating power.

[khayyam 68]

actually i think almost everyone here is right! sure, some boats are good value at the asking price -- well maintained, equipment, etc. but the OP isn't wrong to think that an awful lot of what's out there is significantly overpriced...

[grantmc 59]

There is no magic formula as the basis of a boat price. Often owners have very inflated ideas as to what their boat is worth, particularly when they’ve had the boat a few years; and so spent thousands of dollars on maintenance and improvements. If you watch Trade Me you’ll see the same over priced boats relisted and relisted. Realistically priced boats generally sell.

 

Southern Jeff, very generously makes the point that he felt he bought his Raven at a bargain at $11K (75% of the listed price). But he accepted he had to/will spend the equivalent again over the following 2-3 years (sails, rigging, and electrics). He bought a 1970s boat. And that doesn’t take account of the $3,500 pa marina mooring fees he has to pay. If the motor dies (and assuming like most Ravens it’s still the original 40 plus year old motor), he’ll spend at least another $10k to replace it, plus the cost of install, say $5k to $8K (I know this because my Raven’s motor died recently like many others). He might luck on a good second hand motor, but maybe not. People don’t generally sell good second hand motors; they sell their crapped out old motors.

 

But the point is that after all that money has been spent Tandara will still only be worth around $10K if Jeff’s lucky. All those repairs, extra gadgets, hours and hours and dollars of love spent making the boat better mostly don’t add anything to the value.

 

My advice would be to think very seriously about a decent trailer sailor. It has some significant advantages. You can cruise in lakes for instance. There are no mooring fees (a huge advantage), doesn’t need anti foul (at least another $600 every 18 months or so). If you need to work on the boat, you can park it at your garage or workshop where everything is handy.

 

Also you have much less difficulty with the weather. I live in Wellington so the Marlborough Sounds is my play pen. But Cook Strait is fickle, and before you can leave to cross you have to catch a weather window. Sometimes I’ve had to leave the boat in Picton and return by ferry for work in Wellington. Then I have a boat in the Sounds, costing more mooring fees, plus the ferry isn’t cheap with the extra trips needed for self and crew. If caught like this it always ends up costing at least $500.

 

Once we were near Nelson and had a problem with the stuffing box seriously leaking. No option but to go into Nelson. Had to fly myself and crew back to Wellington for work and leave boat there. That little break down cost bloody thousands. Would have been so nice to just slide the boat onto the trailer and drive her home for repair.

 

I so envy the people that just tow their boat on to the ferry the day they want their holiday to start and end (no weather windows for them). And the nice thing is if you find sailing isn’t for you (or your life has to change), you don’t have a money sucking pit costing you mooring fees, month after month. And if you don’t believe me go to just about any marina and you’ll see many many boats that haven’t left their mooring in years and likely never will. Long lost dreams but still costing serious cash.

[ex TL systems 63]

 Yes SD, and the ones that ring up and offer less without even seeing what you have  there, I cant be bothered with them...makes me feel like educating them in sex and travel .

 

 At least have a proper look before you start bargaining eh. I mean you might be looking at a boat at the top of the class threshold , but which has  equipment on it in excess of the difference in value to the next boats down.( or have a proper osmosis job in the CV.)

Personally I don,t get offended if someone contacts me to say they are in the market for a boat like mine but are only prepared or able to pay x amount of my asking price, without viewing the boat, saves a lot of time if they are up front at the beginning and you don,t have to bother showing them the boat for nothing and if their offer is not enough I can just say thanks but no, not at the moment..  And to me any interest or offer is better than none.   How many stories have we heard of vendors turning down an offer only to sell for less years later?   Look at Careless Intent , that was paying hard stand fees for around 5 years, the owner would have been way better off if he had sold the boat for $1 on the day that he decided he no longer wanted it. Lets face it a 40 ft + older racing multihull may well be worth a lot of money [to replace] but the reality is that there will be very few people lining up to buy it unless it is cheap enough to tempt them.

[TonyB 1]

Interesting comments and in the main pretty helpful, thanks. Yes, I do realise that buying a boat "on the cheap" can be false economy and doesn't take into account maintenance costs. My original post wasn't about "how to get a cheap boat and save money" but more about how to make a realistic but not stupid offer. I have got a better picture from peoples comments about that.

I am in contact with the H28 guys and receiving some advice from that quarter. Quite happy to take my time too to get it right - as the intention is to have a long term yacht that we keep looking good. It's heart breaking to see how run down some of the yachts on swing moorings around the Auckland bays have got!

Kevin it would be great to take you up on your offer. I will see if I can work out how to Pm you.

[Clipper 343]

i think if someone is looking at an H28, a multihull is about as opposite as you can get.  

[SthnJeff 18]

What's the reference to swing moorings. I'm have read and are with the consensus swing moorings are better than a marina berth. A marina berth the vessel is continuously exposed to the elements - weather - uv rays. So one side will be deteriorate more than the other and quicker.

I have read some rubbish but that just about takes the biscuit

[Clipper 343]

heard of prevailing winds OC?

They cause same issues on moored boats.

[SthnJeff 18]

 You are not very observant are you. Have you walked along a marina and seen a boat where one side the varnish and paint is completely cracked and peeling and the other side shows no signs - cracked varnish and paint or peeling..

I am plenty observant. In the real world, the sun moves across the sky on a daily basis, weather blows from many parts of the compass. A boat tied to a berth is as likely as any other to get sun to all parts so that the reality is little real difference. Yes I have seen boats with cracked varnish and paint on one side. It is also fairly prevalent on all other parts of the vessel too and is usually on boats that have a lettuce farm hanging of them below the waterline have sail covers covered in mould, sheets and halyards that are stiffer than standing rigging and may as well be bolted to the marina berth.

[Dambo 44]

 You are not very observant are you. Have you walked along a marina and seen a boat where one side the varnish and paint is completely cracked and peeling and the other side shows no signs - cracked varnish and paint or peeling. particularly when they are beam on facing north southern hemphere.

When I had my boat on a swing mooring in Okahu Bay, I was facinated to observe more growth on one side. It was minimal but none the less, observable.  I'd give her a scrub but always the Port side would have slime accumulate and start to grow up the paint/side faster than the Starboard.  With the prevailing westerly she would generally be Port South.  The other issue was the continuous ferry slop, I actually raised my waterline 6" to accomodate this.   Erice, your boat was next to mine, what do you think?