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You're thinking of going offshore. The list has got to the Nav station.

 

So you need:

International communication.

Position via GPS or Celestial

Depth.

 

You'd like:

Weather Information at sea.

Satellite phone.

SSB

A really big Chartplotter.

Radar

AIS

Speed through the water

Wind gear

Automatic steering

Full integration

Lots of redundancy

Complete reliability

Low electrical draw

 

Of course the wind is free so all this should be low budget!

 

Name brand vs Unknown on Trade Me

 

Chart plotter vs Tablet. Boat power vs independent

 

There's a myriad of options now. What's your pick?

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You're thinking of going offshore. The list has got to the Nav station.

 

So you need:

International communication.

 

Don't NEED it, but if wife is not aboard she appreciates a text each day, so a satphone as a bit of a luxury.

Position via GPS or Celestial

 

I'll have celestial because i already have it, but I'm not silly, GPS is cheap and easy these days, and the boat came with it anyway.

 

Depth.

 

There's one on board so I'll use it, old, but it works.

 

You'd like:

Weather Information at sea.

 

a barometer and a book on weather and clouds

 

Satellite phone.

 

As above

 

SSB

 

Don't want one

 

 

A really big Chartplotter.

 

Open CPN on a laptop

 

 

Radar

 

Not keen enough to run out and buy one

AIS

New to me but could consider it for single handed

Speed through the water

use the GPS

Wind gear

not necessary, but the boat came with it, if it dies of old age it will get tossed

Automatic steering

Critical, whatever you choose don't stint. I like a wind vane but the boat doesn't suit so a big mother grunty under deck auto pilot is what I have, working on charging systems so i can survive engine failure.

Full integration

Sounds like maths

Lots of redundancy

always good

Complete reliability

impossible to achieve but a great goal

Low electrical draw

WInd vane and no radio solves that

 

Of course the wind is free so all this should be low budget!

 

Name brand vs Unknown on Trade Me

 

Chart plotter vs Tablet. Boat power vs independent

We have the old GPS that reads lat and long, open CPN on the laptop with a dongle, will probably get a tabletty thing before we go for the helm (under the hard dodger), but for 2 years now I  have been using a phone.

 

There's a myriad of options now. What's your pick?

 

No correct answer but think about it and be comfortable with your choices

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You got it Wal, basics first!!

Grant, DVD players suck way too much power. Copy all the music to a USB drive...

 

For the rest, there is really two directions to go. PC based or conventional plotter based.

I've been trying to get to writing an article about this and the pros and cons, but have not got to it yet. Here is a quick summary;

 

Multiple function systems are better for limiting power use.

Basic instrument packages are required, depth, speed, temp, wind-speed, log all in the same transducer now. There are some real low power use instruments available now, way better than a few years ago.

For safety in navigation, the basic rule is never trust one source of data. All the instrument packages (well, nearly all) now speak NMEA2000, so can easily share data to help with this, and they save weight as they only need one cable.

Positioning and plotting are safer on a plotter or PC - and routes can be entered and shared without re-keying (which can introduce errors). Cheapest is a PC with free software - OpenCPN is great! Plotters like the Zeus 11 or even the Vulcan might be better for the technically challenged! They are more robust as well.  GPS's are cheap now, I have 5 aboard. Primary boat one, 1 handheld in the grab bag, the AIS one, and two smartphones! 

International comms can be via Satphone (suitable for short trips, expensive long term), or SSB and Pactor, which gives email from anywhere but takes a bit of time to learn. Irridium go is another option, but I don't have personal experience of it yet. Similar to a sat ph.

Radar. If shorthanded, in poorly charted areas, or bad visibilty, these are invaluable! Often not appreciated by those who have not used them (or don't know how to use them properly!) New radars (Like the Navico -Lowrance, Simrad,B&G) draw very little (2w standby and 18w working!!), no warm up time, and are really cheap now, A 3G radar can be had out of the USA for under $1500 NZD, if used with opencpn (so you only need the dome). Radar overlays and guard zones are fantastic - never sleep, get cold, need toilet breaks, or complain. Mine normally sees other vessels before someone on watch does. Make sure your alarms are loud- a pc is good for this!

Automatic steering. Depends on how many crew you have. Modern autopilots are great, but can be power hungry, depending on boat and trim etc. Again, interfacing is easy (nmea2000 again if you can). Don't worry about those who say that all these things will fail at once. They can all work stand alone if they have to, it's just interfacing makes it so much easier! A wind-vane steering system still suits some sailors and some boats, and uses no power. However it is stupid - it will follow the wind if there is an unexpected shift. Modern APs can sail to wind angle, course, waypoint, route, whatever, with alarms as required.

 

So, what have I got? As you may have guessed, I like the electronics, and I'm pretty confident I can fix most things. I use a PC (draws 10w) as the center of my system. Email, weatherfax, grib forcasts and comms via SSB and Pactor 3 (would be a 4 now). Instruments etc all connected to the PC, as are the radar, AIS, Auto pilot, primary GPS plotter.  Primary NAV plotter is opencpn on the PC with a 15" touch screen which is replicated at the helm. Autopilot is a Simrad AP24 with an AC42 pilot computer and Hydraulic steering. The hydraulic steering is on a separate tiller to provide redundancy to the mechanical main steering system. Radar is a Lowrance 3G broadband dome, gimbaled so it works properly while sailing, connected by ethernet to the PC. VHF is a DSC unit connected to the GPS and the PC. We carry a spare laptop in case of a PC failure. The total package is worth about $15,000 to replace today. The same functions with a plotter based system would be over $25K, and would not do emails etc etc. Most cruisers with plotter based systems have a laptop for comms as well as the nav system. Most offshore racers have a PC or Mac at the nav station.

I have had this system (basically, had 3 PCs and changed the software to opencpn in this time) since 2001, and the boat has done over 30,000 miles with it so far. I have never had a failure at sea, except the AP computer 1x and the Hydraulics loosing oil 1x. 

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I'd have radar and AIS for coming through shipping lanes. Having come through a couple on dark and stormy nights I learned how busy these can be. I was amazed coming through Eastern Australia at the speed of these behemoths.

 

If you're using GPS smartphones make sure they are can actually use satellites and not just cell towers for positions. Some use the Russian satellites. What are people using?

 

Take spares of everything including alternators and belts. You might even want triple backup for self steering.

 

We had texts via satellite phone for weather routing info. Sold the satphone after we got back so it worked out cheap. A few years ago there was a company in Sydney who did good deals on sim cards for them.

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FFS Km we got it the first time!

Interesting choice BP that a barometer & a cloud is OK for weather, can it see that cyclone forming in the Coral Sea? And yes I know sailors for hundreds of years had nothing better but there have been some advances in the last 20 years that are not a complete waste of time & money! 

Forecasting would be the one thing I think it's worth spending time & money on, but hey call me a pussy if you like.

But I've done offshore trips in 55 knots, and I've done them in 25 knots max, & guess what, one is more fun than the other!

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Yes, you can cross the ocean in a folkboat with no electronics.

Yes you can get a weather report by radio, or DIY by clouds and barometer.

Personally I like Grib files, weather faxes, and forecasts. For me it is part of seamanship - be as informed as you can, make the most of the conditions available, deal with what you have to suit yourself and your boat int he best possible manner. To me, not having decent forecasts is irresponsible in this day and age. Cook took with him the best technology he could in the day ( and early chronometer, for example)...

 

If you go in a race without the gear, a similar sailor in a similar boat, both with that gear will beat you. His routing will be better, his average speed better, and probably he will sail a shorter track in more comfort.

 

Go in the folkboat with nothing if you wish, but don't expect miracles! :-) 

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In the last Trans Tasman, to which boats are you referring to KM? My comment was given similar boats, & similar sailors abilities, the one with the most info would win. I do not see any boats that can be compared in that manner from that event.

 

Here is an example of what I mean. A while back, for my boat I did a route plan for a Trans Tasman. This involved the boat's polars, the weather forecasts, pilot charts, current and tide data etc. This was given to a routing program to decide the best course. There were over 65 million calculations to arrive at the result, taking the PC about 30 Mins to calculate. This type of calculation can be used with every new forecast, to make sure that the best possible routing decisions can be made, even for a weather system that is, as yet several days away.

 

I'd defy any "seat of the pants" sailor to be able to get anywhere near the same efficiency in route planning. He would not even know about a system still days away. The top long distance Navigators all use these systems, (volvo boats, vendee globe etc), -  the reason for that is because it works better!  They are, of course, only good for the reasonably accurate forecast period - usually (currently)  3-5 days. 

 

To deny the use of modern electronics is a help to getting the most out of your boat, is similar to wanting to use cotton sails. The new stuff is just better.

 

For me, the satisfaction in a voyage is having made the best possible decisions I can, and to sail the boat to the best of my ability, with the information available. Others may get more from it by "doing without", but I don't. I have an engine, and many other modern gadgets!

 

Each to their own though :-) 

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Yep, ok KM. I'd be amazed if all my electronics weigh 100KG, let alone 200KG. Lets see;

 

Windgen around 7 Kg, say 15KG with mount pole & cables.

Solar panels, 3 KG each (2), say 10 KG with cables and controller

Computer 1 KG, monitor 3 KG x 2, 7 KG total.

AP ram 10 KG

Instuments total (WInd, speed, depth AIS, AP, Radar, etc) 10 KG

SSB and Pactor less than 10 KG

EPIRB 1 KG

 

Probably forgot some stuff, but that total is 63 KG. The Batteries are bloody heavy though, and I probably have more than you. 440ah, about 100 KG total.

 

Power consumption depends on how much hand steering you wish to do. The AP is the most power hungry device in a decent seaway, can consume as much as 43 amps momentarily, but averages about 5, so 125ah per day. Fridge/freezer is big (580ltrs total), consumes about 45amp/hrs per day. PC is 30w with one monitor going, about 60 a/h per 24, radar the same. Nav lights etc are now very small draw, say 2amp hours. All together, my boat uses about 300 amp hours per 24 hours. If you used a lithium batt, that would be 3 hours running with a 100 amp alternator, or a constant charge of 12.5 amps from somewhere. The solar and wind gen often keep up with this, sometimes I run the motor to assist if there is no wind or sun. I normally run the engine an hour a day to run the engine driven fridge, which reduces the amount of running the electric one does. You wont have such a heavy AP, or such a big (if any) fridge freezer, so a lot of the draw won't be there.

 

My boat is not huge -34 ft on the waterline. Your boat would be faster than mine off the wind, and is likely to be faster in a solo tasman than me. Island Time will plane, but only reluctantly.

 

Its not as bad as you think!!:-)

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This is a real part of the electronics package selection process too, along with refrigeration, is to get the level of safety and 'comfort' aboard, while doing inside the cost, weight and charging 'budget'.

At sea solar power is often blocked by the sails, so much less use than at anchor. 

But personally I think a modern yacht should be able to sail most of the time, without running an engine for charging. 

Perhaps that's where some of the advances are in amp use reduction, notably Sat Phones vs SSB, and modern Radar. But you can go without either SSB or Radar.

Also it's deciding what you really need, rather than an endless list of electronics and fridges that prevent ever going to sea. 

There are shops at your most of your destinations. Part of the challenge of sailing to another town is finding the local markets surely. So how many freezers do you need? Dare I say it, but freeze dried and can food still exists and has improved too.

I run 300 Amp/hr of batteries, that the wind and solar keep up with, nearly all of the time. So the challenge will be offshore electronics that fits within the amp and weight budget... 

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I totally agree Tim, it's the charging that limits the systems.

 

Many cruising boats (remember that the average size must be somewhere near 50ft now - Island Time is small at 40) have gensets to keep up with the demands, and have way more gear than I do - watermakers, garbage compactors, even air conditioning, sometimes even multi zone for each cabin! Weight is a real issue there, and does effect sailing performance, sometimes radically!

 

Large alternators (150amp and up) are common, sometimes more than 1. Make sure they are hot rated and have proper multi stage regulators or they are self defeating!

 

But, as you say Tim, look at the 3G radar - 3 watts on standby, 18w transmit (iirc), my pc nav system with 15" touchscreen total 30 watts, etc etc. Modern stuff can be really low power draw. An example is that Island Time has 14 internal lights, a few years back I changed them all to LED - now I can have them ALL on, and they draw less than 1x 25 w incandescent bulb! The primary Nav light for sailing (masthead Tri Color) draws 0.15 amps! 

 

SSB does draw a lot, but in my case it is only used for about 10 - 20 mins per day, totaling about 4-8 amp hours. 

 

It is certainly possible to have a modern sailboat that is self sufficient for power, without running an engine, if you do the setup right. Sailing East or West especially can be an issue with shading for solar, but if that is the case and you are sailing, there is wind, and that is where the wind gen comes in. Sometimes, downwind, there is not enough wind across the deck, and I have to resort to the motor if there is no sun as well.... nothing is perfect I guess!

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But KM, gentlemen don't sail to weather!

 

Fair point about the engine. Without the fridge and big autopilot the consumption is down a lot probably I reckon to not hugely over 130 amp hours. You will need some AP power though....

 

The S panels I have are 1.4m x .56m ans 3mm thick, flexible type, 140watt, so not physically huge, and only 3kg.

 

My time for the Solo Tasman in 2010 was 9 days 17 odd  hours IIRC, 3rd Keelboat, 7 hours behind the wining keel boat. The whole race was close, and pretty interesting! Conditions each time vary a fair bit, so its hard to compare results from other years. 

 

You should be able to work out a power system that will not need much from the engine...

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My apologies to those on the site who's business is selling electronics. But the elephant in the room is perhaps these imported non name brand GPS/AIS units such as this, which seems to tick many boxes: http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=897476130

 

As I said on a previous thread, the problem with marine electronics is that they are combining relatively two cheap things, ie a tablet and a GPS, making it waterproof, and then charging a great deal.

 

Now the above example is a brand we haven't heard of, Samyung. But then if you all check the back of your phones or computers that you are reading this on, they are very probably made in Asia too.

 

So has anyone actually got one of these units or similar, and got a story to tell?

 

Note I've had a 50% strike rate with non name imports. Outboard Motor 0, Wind generator 1...

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This is the type of thing I was warning about before. That  trademe site links to a CE certificate that IS NOT FOR AN AIS !!!!

The standards applicable to AIS use in NZ are given below. This unit DOES NOT HAVE APPROPRIATE TYPE APPROVAL for use in ANY western country, 

 

Any supplier should be able to give you a copy of the certification on demand. The appropriate standards for AIS are AIS Class B is IEC 62287 and IEC 61108 is required for the GPS receiver. The certificates for the device MUST state these standards. It is common for the Chinese manufacturers to mislead customers, and even provide certificates that are not applicable!!

 

Tread cautiously... as a user, it is YOU who can be prosecuted for using an certified device. The importer can also get into some trouble, but it is the user of the equipment that takes the brunt of any problems. This is why most of these units are only receivers...

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I've gone through the potential input and output electrical loadings on my boat, using various combinations of wind, solar and motor. This is assuming in cruising mode and getting to the islands may well include motoring. 

Also I tallied up the various outputs of Nav and fridge systems.

The thing that springs to mind is that as soon as 24 hours, gets put next to an item, it consumes (or makes) lots of power. Fridges and Autopilots are challenging, and Nav systems add up too.

But on the plus side the conclusion I come to, and perhaps for you too KM, is that wind generation while sailing is really valuable. It keeps pumping in all day and night, takes minimal room and no fuel...

But at a sheltered anchorage you can't beat solar of course.

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And Tim, no need to apologize for posting stuff that is around! Good to know. By the way, I looked up the IEC 60945 spec - it is actually for a marine PC!! see http://www.ccs-inc.com/ccs-resources/profile/an-overview-of-iec-60945-certification-for-marine-computers

 

Do you really want to by gear from a supplier that has intentionally set out to deceive you??

 

Back to topic - I think solar is ok when sailing as well - just not always! heel and sails can effect it, but mounting positions have a lot to do with this.

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I hear you on that. I've asked for the manufacturer to supply these details for our information. (compliance with AIS standards)

To be fair though, the IEC 60945 spec is for manufacturing of marine chart plotting equipment, and is relevant to the GPS chart plotter function on the Unit, and is a reasonable minimum standard for this.  The certificate it advertises does not say it is for the AIS function, although I can see that should be spelt out. I think to use the word 'deceive' may be a bit harsh though...

 

 By the way, I looked up the IEC 60945 spec - it is actually for a marine PC!! see http://www.ccs-inc.com/ccs-resources/profile/an-overview-of-iec-60945-certification-for-marine-computers

 

Do you really want to by gear from a supplier that has intentionally set out to deceive you??

 

 

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Tim it will be interesting to see the response.

 

I don't think "deceive" is misplaced. This is an AIS transponder, class B. There are primary certifications for AIS class B. I'll be amazed if they have the correct certification and don't provide it by default. It is expensive to get, and that makes the manufacturers that have it keen to show you that they have it... There are other supporting certifications (Like the IEC 60945) that are appropriate AS WELL, but the primary ones are IEC 62287 and IEC 61108.

 

Here is an example of a correct Certificate for an AIS (this is the Vesper Marine XB8000);

 

http://downloads.vespermarine.com/compliance/XB8000/BABT_C3012092712030.pdf

 

Would you build a boat with materials that only "might" be up to the task, as they are untested?

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