Black Panther 1,566 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 i would not expect a tiller pilot to last a single long passage. I could be wrong, but I wouldn't expect it. 2 or 3 long passages??? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gypsy Soul 8 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 That's the problem BP. I need something to last for a 6 month sojourn around the Islands. Maybe I take a whole bunch of spare tiller pilots....or are they really that fragile? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve Pope 243 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Wind vane for passages, with a tiller pilot connection for when motoring or no winds. There is almost no load on the tiller pilot used in this way and you can use one of the lower powered versions for that very reason.. plus a lot cheaper than a heavy duty ont directly connected to the tiller. The only proviso is to have the TP unit either out of the weather as you can if connected to a capehorn self steering system or with a custom cover to prevent water getting where it shouldn't when connected to an aries etc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,566 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Aton ANt left for Aus with 2 or 3 and they didn't make it. (boat was OK, tillerpilots died). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
too_tall 15 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I'd have a tiller pilot over anything hydraulic any and every day all day long. Its got to be at least 150 kilos lighter than what your suggesting. A full Simrad system weighs about 20kg incl ram and pump. Cant see how your tiller pilot weighs -130kg. And tiller pilots do not deal with difficult conditions very well in my experience. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
too_tall 15 Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Power generation is there anyway - towed gen weighs several KG, alternator weight several KG, solar panels weigh next to nothing, batteries would be there still AP or not - going from wind vane to AP we did not have to upgrade anything at all in the generation or storage systems. The towed gen is very useful in that if the AP is working harder it tends to be working harder... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,211 Posted August 29, 2015 Author Share Posted August 29, 2015 I'm in the camp of the electric tiller pilot sceptics. I had three of two different brands over 3 years with a previous boat. Yes, that is a few years ago now. All three did not last a year of regular Cook Strait crossings. Maybe they have improved, but I've yet to see the evidence. These are normally worm drive systems, often with many plastic components, even the tiller connection. I've seen quite a few of those connections fail over the years. I do know of one cruiser with a 30ftr that uses one, and has had a ss end made for it for the tiller connection. Mostly, the manufacturers don't say they are suitable for crossing oceans! Personally I think on a small boat without room for solar and or wind gen, a wind vane remains the best option. For weight, 150kg is way too much - if you just want an AP power unit. The best way is to generate as required - wind gen and solar works best. If weight conscious, then the new lithium based fast charge batts make a lot of sense, as does a large frame hot rated high output alternator. Some lithium bats can be charged at their rated capacity, and fully discharged iirc. That means a 200amp hour batt can be fully charged with a 200 amp alt in an hours engine running. That would give about a day running an AP at an average 8 amps - a pretty high average. Lots of options to think about, so as an individual can select the system that best suits their particular requirements. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
eruptn 89 Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Interesting overview of three of the MFD chart plotters here ; http://www.pbo.co.uk/gear/sailing-chartplotters-exclusive-first-test-21854 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,211 Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 KM, I don't agree with all of that. The Mini 650's are pretty similar to what you are trying to do. A reliable self steering system with minimum drag and min weight... They often use a hydraulic system. Here is a pic of one; Similar to the unit pictured, the Navico HLD350 mk2 split version drive weighs approx. 9KG. The Compass, AP computer and rudder sensor are less than 3KG. Power requirement is 3.5-10amps depending on load. Average draw is towards the lower end. a 200 amp hour lithium bat is in the region of 32 KG - but pricey! Really fast charge rates, heaps of cycles, 70% lighter than the equivalent wet cell battery. The main issue as I see it for a small, light race boat is recharging. KM, be careful of those little gensets - often have say 2kw output IN 230V ONLY and a small trickle charge in 12-15v for batt charging - sometimes only 8amps odd. So to make them work, you have to have them, AND a mains battery charger to get decent DC output, with additional weight and losses in conversion. Still the largest output for the least weight, IMO, is a good alternator - IF you have an engine (small diesel?) to drive it. If not, say you have an outboard only, then it is a real issue. A fuel cell maybe? How do the mini's manage this? Oh, and also, as far as I can see, the mini 650's often use NKE as most mini's are French, and so is NKE. I cannot see a functional reason that they are better than any others - in fact they are not as clever as the top end B&G models. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TimB 7 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 " in fact they are not as clever as the top end B&G models" NKE developed very clever systems for the big solo trimarans that "know" enough to, for example, bear away when overpowered off the wind, and also release sheets when required, but not when not needed to, clever stuff indeed. So the solo sailor never needs to steer. tb Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,211 Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 Yep, I agree with that TB, the B&G stuff was developed with monos in mind - using and for the Vendee globe boats - same thing, the APs steer virtually all the time. They have gust response and crash recovery etc built in - not something you need (or want!!) in a multi! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Beccara 25 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 How much juice you need? Fuel cell will do 80-110w/hr in a 9kg footprint, 4.3kg 5L fuel can will give you 5.5kwh and will run near silent for 2 days. If you can spec an AP to within that loading you'd have a win Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Farrari 4 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Here's an example that google found for a fuel cell on a mini 650. It looks like a sexy beast to me and I'm picking it would run a hydraulic self steering system no problem. All you need is some sponsorship or more $$$ http://www.fuelcellsystems.co.uk/fcapplications/marine-fuel-cells/installations/pip-hare/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,211 Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 That unit looks pretty good - it would run a small autopilot (like KM needs), but pretty expensive!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Beccara 25 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Yeah the Efoy units for 110w will run just north of $15k, You can distill your own fuel tho! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Farrari 4 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Yeah the Efoy units for 110w will run just north of $15k, You can distill your own fuel tho! They may have come down in price a bit EFOY 80 Full Cell £2,364.00 inc. VAT EFOY 140 Full Cell £3,660.00 inc. VAT http://www.fuelcellsystems.co.uk/shop/SFC_Fuel_Cells.html The down side being there will be alcohol on the boat ...... second thoughts maybe a really good self steer system is required Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Beccara 25 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Those ones are too small honestly, the 210 would be the one you want and it's $12k NZ + GST + shipping on that site and EFoy are protective of their dealer networks, I'm not sure any EFoy dealer would ship one outside of their country I wouldn't drink it either! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Farrari 4 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I only picked the EFOY 80 and 140 models as they were shown as being installed in a mini 650. How about this one http://www.rvsupplies.co.nz/categories/classic_display/fuel-cells From the NZ listed dealer off the EFOY main web site. 140Ah per day, max output 72W. RVK 475 - Efoy Comfort Fuel Cell $7295.00 Inc GST Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,211 Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 I don't think 72w is enough - need at least 105.... for an average of the guesstimated AP load... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
too_tall 15 Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 We would never even remotely class ourselves as anything other than cruisers, but constantly using our AP, according to the averaging current transformer we averaged 5.8 amps between Tauranga and Fiji this year. If that 105w fuel cell is feeding a modest sized battery it would very comfortably manage to average 6 amps. a 72w would be right at its limit. In fact, a 105w would do everything fairly comfortably other than refrigeration. Only need a start battery and maybe a smallish Lithium "house" battery. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.