Whats wrong with the marine industry in this country.

[John B 106]

Once you know you can trust someone for goods and services , you don't need quotes. A best estimate or quote perhaps on the part, and just fair and reasonable treatment on the work is fine by me .

When you get unfairly treated , its spray , and , walk ,away.

 

I'll tell you another little parable that came up at the boat show as I wandered around with my 4 other boat owner mates with the $140.00 ( should be $40 parts in my pocket)

about 3 months ago I drove from Otahuhu to the North shore to see an outfit there about a project I'd been mulling on for an age. Saw a director , got referred to anther technical guy, had two phone conversations , nothing, nada , zip , They didn't ever come back. Job didn't get done over winter.

Because I was well treated by the young guys at Beacon on another (tiny) job, I asked them to look at it. They did it on time , they did a good job , they charged me a fair price ( although its a big deal to me to spend 5 K on the boat on an 'extra' thing with 2 kids at uni)

Happy camper.

But the really funny thing was talking to the 4 boat owner mates on the first dudes stand and explaining why I spent the money somewhere else.

"Because they didn't want the business"( or future business)

 

hahahahahaha.

[too_tall 15]

I remember a guy once telling me that asking for work to be done without a quote was like asking to be f'd up the arse. Its kinda true.

[John B 106]

Kinda TT, but like I say , when you find people you can trust then you know you aren't going to need the diapers later in life.

[Rangi1 50]

Ok, I must be the exception here. My philosophy is that everyone has to make a fair living. I am often happy to pay materials and labour - having received an estimate of costs up front. 

 

Someone always has to own the risk during a pricing exercise. Risk = $. If I ask the contractor to take that risk, I fully expect him to price it in. If I pay for materials plus his labour at an agreed rate, then I take that risk from him.

 

Sometimes it works in my favour, sometimes I end up paying a bit more than the estimate.

 

I keep in regular communication with whoever is doing the work and have yet to be hit by additional costs above the estimate that make me bleed too much. Often it comes in under the estimate as contractors generally like to cover themselves. 

 

In three decades of full on commercial and specialist construction, I have come around to this. Hard arsed screwing of the contractor = tears by someone (or everyone). Fair price for fair days work = happiness all round.

 

Your views may (and clearly do) vary

[Island Time 1,235]

Rangi1, that is the way

[Bad Kitty 252]

No I don't think you are the exception Rangi, I think there are quite a few of us around that work like that.

We've just had a new freezer built & installed on Bad Kitty. Richard Edlin did the boat work & the glass box, Fridgetech Marine did the stainless box, compressor, & all that clever plumbing stuff.

No quotes, just people that I've used for years & trust.

Great job, happy client, no drama.

I agree about the hard arsed screwing = tears.

Everyone needs to make a living, and when I ring these guys up I want them to be happy to talk to me, not thinking "oh sh*t here we go again, getting screwed by this pr*^k" 

[John B 106]

I agree 100%, good business is when both or all parties are satisfied.

[twisty 176]

Totally agree with Rangi. What a lot of clever charlies don't get is that if you screw someone, they will wait forever to screw you back. Nobody wins, least of all the original screwer.

[wheels 543]

I have designed and installed systems for a fair number of Stadiums and Venues in NZ. Whenever Fletchers, Downer or similar  and a Council were involved, a spec would be put out for tender. In the beginning, we often lost jobs because there were some companies that put in low quotes and then we would hear of installs that performed poorly. Then the manager and the top sales guy tried something very different. They quoted cheap on a large complex and won the Contract. Then we sat the Heads of Construction and Council down at the conference room table and told them why their design spec was a piece of crap and simply wouldn't perform. They would need to quadruple their budget if they really wanted it to work how they wanted. There were some very red faces, many ruffled feathers and it even made the news re a major Budget blowout. But they went with us and we installed a system that made a few sit up and take notice. Although I did really struggle with Fletchers, because we seriously put one of their top guys nose out of joint. It wasn't till I was dealing with this guy in the early stages of Yarrow Stadium build that I found out that the Person doing their design spec for tenders was a relation, like Son in law or something like that.
But ever since, whenever we had such tenders were jobs were done based purely on price, you had to go in cheap and win the job and then sit them down and tell them right this is why it won't work.
Also on those major scale projects, there were constant changes to the building design all the way through construction. Jade was one of the worst, because they were building the place before they had the money. So when they realised the money was going to be short, there would be changes all the time. It was one of the most frustrating projects I ever worked on.

[Guest Ketchup]

Hear what Rangi is saying but disagree.

 

The power of good design, strong specification, and experience means you CAN get a good deal for both parties at the best price.

 

There is no way I would accept the nigher price because of a quality perception. Design and specification eliminates quality issues!

 

I have had a few houses build and have taken the best price because I know my design and spec is top class, my QS is accurate, and there is no deviation from spec.

 

Also full and final payment is not made until compliance and full and final sign. Off...by me!

 

Ensuring clarity around expectation and robust specification/design will ensure quality at the best/lowest price.

 

This can work for everything from asmall fitting to a super yacht.

 

As Too Tall said. There are systems and processes that ensure that the guy quoting is profitable with out ripping you off ...to cover his lack of business / pricing ability.

[Guest Ketchup]

I have designed and installed systems for a fair number of Stadiums and Venues in NZ. Whenever Fletchers, Downer or similar  and a Council were involved, a spec would be put out for tender. In the beginning, we often lost jobs because there were some companies that put in low quotes and then we would hear of installs that performed poorly. Then the manager and the top sales guy tried something very different. They quoted cheap on a large complex and won the Contract. Then we sat the Heads of Construction and Council down at the conference room table and told them why their design spec was a piece of crap and simply wouldn't perform. They would need to quadruple their budget if they really wanted it to work how they wanted. There were some very red faces, many ruffled feathers and it even made the news re a major Budget blowout. But they went with us and we installed a system that made a few sit up and take notice. Although I did really struggle with Fletchers, because we seriously put one of their top guys nose out of joint. It wasn't till I was dealing with this guy in the early stages of Yarrow Stadium build that I found out that the Person doing their design spec for tenders was a relation, like Son in law or something like that.

But ever since, whenever we had such tenders were jobs were done based purely on price, you had to go in cheap and win the job and then sit them down and tell them right this is why it won't work.

Also on those major scale projects, there were constant changes to the building design all the way through construction. Jade was one of the worst, because they were building the place before they had the money. So when they realised the money was going to be short, there would be changes all the time. It was one of the most frustrating projects I ever worked on.

I have had similar experiences with the higher Supposed better quality priced submission to wheels.

 

A good and robust design / spec should never allow for shoddy work because of lower price. Especially if it is overseen correctly.

 

Where this goes wrong is when alternatives to specs are allowed or the original spec has missed Key requirements!

 

But agree that there are some people Whom, through wanting a cheaper price or wanting a rebate/kick back/perk, will ignore certain standards.

 

I have seen this with commercial steel stud wall systems and ceiling grid systems where the owner accepts non compliant systems (earthquake and fire rated to AS and NZS)because of the "perks/kickback from the supplier, then the installer just has to install the inferior system knowing it is crap but he can't say a thing or his work will dry up!

 

This happened in CHCH prior to the earthquakes and many of these cheap systems failed.

 

Even some Enginners and specifiers (who have subsequently been before the engineers institute and in criminal court proceedings) were spec'ing product because of perks and offers of larger projects, knowing it was crap.!... I know! I was pointing it out to them and being ignored!...

 

But it came back to haunt them big time!... karma!

[Beccara 25]

There's alot of black and white talk going on in here

 

We're currently hauled out for a bit of work and I tell you what, There are some really serious issues in Northland atleast. Atleast 70% of the companies I've had to deal with are just plain sh*t.

 

A month ago when I confirmed my haulout date I got some recommendations from the yard and other people I know and we went door knocking letting them know in a month we'd be out with X project for them to do, We've now hauled out and went back to these companies only to be told in one case the guy we needed went on holiday and we'd need to come back in a week, in another case the person took 2.5 days to turn up to look at the job and has still yet to give me even a ballpark on pricing and when they can do it, all despite both companies saying no worries a month ago, Another crowd told me some bushing's would have to be custom made at nearly a $1k expense (16 x flanged bushings 23mmx20mmx37mm) purely because i played dumb about the project.

 

Overall I have had only one experience with a company that was good, No BS straight down to work. So far I've dealt with atleast 12 :/

[too_tall 15]

To be honest, one of the worst companies we have ever had the displeasure of dealing with was based in Northland. But, they were the only one of quite a number around Opua who let us down at all, the rest were very good to deal with, and stuck to their pricing. ( A couple came back to me to discuss that the work involved was more significant than they originally quoted, but thats fine - they talked to me about it so got paid for the extra.).

 

The poor performers are everywhere, as are the exceptionally good ones. It pays to know some local yachties if working outside your home port, because it became apparent that the crowd we had the issues I just mentioned with spend more time arguing with clients or in court than working. Unfortunately it was only apparent once I was talking to some of the locals. After we already had found out the hard way.

[wheels 543]

Down here in Havelock, the cost of a yearly antifoul was usually around $1100 for my Boat. That was $250 for haul out/splash back, me giving the boat a thorough waterblast, and the yard supplying and spraying on the anti-foul. Anode replacement and usually the Boat up on the cradle for 3 to 4 days. When we were over in Queen Charlotte, I once priced up the Travel lift and yard at Waikawa and was shocked the Haulout charge was $400. But the Port Company charged the yard for the use of the Berth the Travel lift used. So we continued to sail around to Havelock.
Well Waikawa was nothing compared to Auckland. For the first Haulout in Auckland, i went to Westpark and asked for costs. I was told $3K to lift/Anti-foul/splash back. I looked at the guy astonished. I said.."so $450 for lift/splash, waterblast and Anti-foul at lets say $1K because you use Gold anti-foul, $150 for three days out, are you saying that spraying the Hull costs $1500???"
So in the end, we had them haul on the Travel list. It was late Friday Afternoon, yet we were charged $50 for the Day in the yard. Their Waterblast clean was appalling. I could have done better spitting at it. We cleaned it down by hand, supplied and applied the Anti-foul by roller, fitted new Anode, cleaned prop, and had the boat back in on the Tide on the Monday, once again charged for the full day in the yard. They missed out on work and I was unhappy with what I got in the way of service from them. It's one reason why I just can't wait to get the Boat back here to Havelock. I can afford to haul once a year here. It's far too expensive in Auckland.
      Oh by the way, a large Launch right beside us in the Marina was having Anti-foul applied by a pro applicator. He was spraying it on in the Rain. Water was running down the Hull and he was spraying over the wet areas. I was thinking how lucky I was I didn't have them applying the AF in my boat.

[SloopJohnB 322]

Wheels, the rain stops the overspray on to other boats.    

[Black Panther 1,586]

I looked up Havelock Marine services as a  result of that.

[Onco Fonco 0]

On Tuesday I asked for a quote/estimate for some halyards, I think all the needed info was there. This is a company I trust, having bought what I consider expensive items previously, and service and product was excellent.

I followed up yesterday, but still haven't had acknowledgement.

How long before I give up and go to the next outfit for the same product?

[Clipper 343]

KM, you make me feel bad for emailing you for quotes on halyards and sheets now! To be fair, I've not bought cordage from anyone else for a long time though.

[Guest Ketchup]

This mornings email brings email 9 and 10 for the same customer. Each email has a small request that will take me a few minutes to deal with before replying. None of it is revenue generating for the company. To make him a happy customer will take 2 hours odd by the time we sort out the courier with all their paperwork for the item he purchased, after a lot of backward and forward discussion, getting to the courier (he's in aussie) and his continual emails. He's brought a item for $22 which we have a 26% gross margin on so the company reaps a huge $2.86 per hour for that one prior to taxes etc.

 

He is not an unusual customer and he is part of the fastest growing customer segment, the sit at home emailers.

 

Should I just tell punters like that to piss off so we can concentrate on those spending the big bucks or should we treat him as we'd expect to be treated ourselves even if it costs us lots to do so?

 

 

 

I concur with BK, Rangi and that thinking. There are mobs I trust so I simply say go for it knowing they will be fair and reasonable. New ones I deal with are judged and sometimes asked for a quote or just a ball park, some I just say go for it. Just yesterday I asked for a ball park, got told $100 so said go for it. The gear just arrived all good and cost $118, courier costs added, which I'm fine with.

KM... get a assistant so you can look after the big guys while looking after the others... easy peasy.

 

Also look at how you utilize your time and what the common "time wasting" activities/processes/systems are and stream line them so you can then spent time working on the "customer interface" and less time with" customers in ya face"!

[Guest Ketchup]

On Tuesday I asked for a quote/estimate for some halyards, I think all the needed info was there. This is a company I trust, having bought what I consider expensive items previously, and service and product was excellent.

I followed up yesterday, but still haven't had acknowledgement.

How long before I give up and go to the next outfit for the same product?

now!

 

Jeez! I ordered A really nice watch from Tissel in Korea. Bang! 8,days and it was delivered!. What was awesome was tracking it via EMS all the way to my town! (Via KL,Auckland...)

 

At the same time I ordered a part from a electronics Co in CH CH.

 

Still waiting¡