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Whats wrong with the marine industry in this country.


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KM, you make me feel bad for emailing you for quotes on halyards and sheets now! To be fair, I've not bought cordage from anyone else for a long time though.

I don't feel bad, it's long overdue that he did some work instead of stuffing round with boats, motorbikes, planes etc. etc.

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Guest Ketchup

I'm hearing a tune in my head but cant quite get all the lyrics. Something about black, kettle and a pot. Would you have any ideas what they maybe? :twisted:  :D

 

But as I get my new bike on Tuesday, next week is looking to be slightly unproductive.... but smooth, fast and probably a very good one for speed cameras north island wide.

 

 

 

You check the spelling on it closely? I did on the good priced jeans I scored in Nadi. Yeap they were 100% genuine Elvis Strauss :D

No these are genuine and not Tissot!

 

Mind you I once brought a Rolex in Bali and when I got home I noticed the logo on the face said Molex... amdit wasn't even a girlie watch.

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Wheels where you ever employed by a rural aviation firm, at HAMILTON

No not me. Unless you have been trying to track the fella down to hand him a lot of money due to some long lost relation or maybe overseas lotto i didn't know I entered. Anything to do with giving me lots of money and I'll call myself anything you want.

I am a Mainland lad, although I spent 3yrs in Auckland learning new tricks from the best there are in the Rope/Chain/Anchor game. Now back in Marlborough.

 

Ketchup, KM didn't come down in the last shower. He has a lot of experience many could learn from. i think you live in a different world. You just never know if the guy that just spent that $22 dollars is going to come back one day with an order for $2200 or $22000. You just never know. And in fact, sometimes the guy that looks the least able to spend sometimes becomes the guy that spends the most. Some of the worst I have ever had to deal with in my past have been the ones with the flash clothes, flash Merc or Beamer, owns the biggest flashiest of Boats, spouts off about how much they will likely spend with you so give them a good deal, and then you end up chasing their Accountant to get paid.

But in saying all that, one reason why I loved working at CRA, was KM's attitude. It is not always just about making sales. And I think that is what makes certain businesses special to deal with. The ones that see you as no more than a lunch ticket tend not to get much repeat business from me.

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Guest Ketchup

No not me. Unless you have been trying to track the fella down to hand him a lot of money due to some long lost relation or maybe overseas lotto i didn't know I entered. Anything to do with giving me lots of money and I'll call myself anything you want.

I am a Mainland lad, although I spent 3yrs in Auckland learning new tricks from the best there are in the Rope/Chain/Anchor game. Now back in Marlborough.

Ketchup, KM didn't come down in the last shower. He has a lot of experience many could learn from. i think you live in a different world. You just never know if the guy that just spent that $22 dollars is going to come back one day with an order for $2200 or $22000. You just never know. And in fact, sometimes the guy that looks the least able to spend sometimes becomes the guy that spends the most. Some of the worst I have ever had to deal with in my past have been the ones with the flash clothes, flash Merc or Beamer, owns the biggest flashiest of Boats, spouts off about how much they will likely spend with you so give them a good deal, and then you end up chasing their Accountant to get paid.

But in saying all that, one reason why I loved working at CRA, was KM's attitude. It is not always just about making sales. And I think that is what makes certain businesses special to deal with. The ones that see you as no more than a lunch ticket tend not to get much repeat business from me.

Gee that's putting words in my mouth there wheels.

 

Where did I say KM came down in the last shower?

 

He came down in a shower years before that :-)

 

And where do I say he should ignore the small guys.

 

What I was saying is... rather than seendinghours on "anybody/one person (while other things could be tweaked)" his time could be spent on everybody with a liitle help.

 

I know KM has his business all sussed and going well. But it never hurts to review what you are doing and where you are going.

 

It also could free up time for other things on the bucket list!

 

After all... nobody goes to heaven ans says " gee I wish I worked harder!"

 

Holisticly, many good buisnessmen need to spend time on the big picture stuff and needs to have a "clone of themselves" under training or working on the other stuff. This ensures all, customers are satisfied and the business is future proofed if for example KM suddenly goes maverick and buys / gets some rope sandles and heads for the hills!:-)

 

As for me living in a different world... I'll take that as a compliment. As the world I have lived in/ and continue to live in has been terrific!

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Tell me you got the order wrong there.

It's KM. He'd combine the lot all at once knowing him. ;-)

 

I 100% agree with KM's comment. Biggest complaints from all of us are that you can't get expert advise in many retail stores now. Why? Because they are paying Peanuts, employing Monkeys and all in the order to make the bigger pile of cash.

And even worse is the completely bollocks of an idea of paying people commission to make more sales. Heck, I know an even better way. Don't have staff at all. Turn it into a giant supermarket style Wharehouse, with crap from China and a 200% mark up stocking the shelves. Oh wait, there's a Mega10 and Bunnings doing that now. Happy to sell crap garbage and not even flutter an eyelid, but then the staff they have haven't a clue what it is they are selling anyway.

 

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Guest Ketchup

I am constantly being told I (we the business) must sell more, sell bigger, sell, sell sell, grow grow grow, export export export. Blaa blaa blaa

 

BULLSHIT. I'd far rather help people get the best they can for whatever it is they want to achieve and then go jump on my boat, bike or wife.

 

This constant push to sell sell sell is what is making the world we live in  less enjoyable than it could be and it's killing people unnecessarily.

 

If I became PM tomorrow there would be no shops opening next Sunday. Anyone working 50hrs plus a week would be getting quadrupole pay for the 51st thru 55hrs then double quadruple after that. The only ones that wouldn't apply to is the company owners and directors, it's their game they can play at it 200hrs a week if they like. I'd also give the mob who looks out for those ripping punters a huge pile more resources and tell them to go make examples of 20-30 odd. And there's more but it's only day one, gimme a chance :D

Yip agree with that!

 

And to do thaypt you need to ensure the business is financially stable so you can continue to do exactly that but also ensure that you (the boss) can play without letting down the customers.

 

But one thing you have to ensure is... it is more important to be ahead of the game (products/technology) and the right size business than trying to be to big and behind the game.

 

After all in this ever changing world of technology... if you are not evolving (that smart talk for "going forward") you are going backwards.

 

Service before size!

 

Best products before price!

 

What ywe all need is That westpac cloneing machine like on that TV add.

 

shite! That could be good for this forum... :-)

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Guest Ketchup

It's KM. He'd combine the lot all at once knowing him. ;-)

I 100% agree with KM's comment. Biggest complaints from all of us are that you can't get expert advise in many retail stores now. Why? Because they are paying Peanuts, employing Monkeys and all in the order to make the bigger pile of cash.

And even worse is the completely bollocks of an idea of paying people commission to make more sales. Heck, I know an even better way. Don't have staff at all. Turn it into a giant supermarket style Wharehouse, with crap from China and a 200% mark up stocking the shelves. Oh wait, there's a Mega10 and Bunnings doing that now. Happy to sell crap garbage and not even flutter an eyelid, but then the staff they have haven't a clue what it is they are selling anyway.

 

That's for sure! I find it easier to Google info than ask a plonker in these big stores!

 

Commission are a great idea on paper but are always compromised by the companies inability to supply customers what a great commission agent has sold.

 

Thus the agent misses out on sales/commision and the customer blames the sale agent for the issues created by the company.

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And to add to the sale by commission, you end up woth pushing sales people trying to sell add on products that are not needed. I can think of Hardly Normal selling those useless extended warranties and scaring the uneducated with horror stories of Power Surges destroying their new TV.
Here's a real world example.
       We often had people come in wanting to fit an anchor swivel. I would say that 80% went away without a swivel, because we sorted the real issues and they didn't actually anything extra all. 15% went away with an anchor straightener instead of Swivel, because that is actually what they needed. 3% went away with a swivel because that is what they needed. 2% went away with a swivel whether they needed it or not, because that is what some mate told them they needed and they didn't want to listen to our advise. If the situation was a Sales by commission or a We don't care we want to rip of the customer, then 95% would have gone away with a swivel and the other 5% would have gone away with a swivel, straightener, new Warp, new Anchor, new bow sprit, and new anchor winch all because we are good sales people.
     The other mistake being made here, is that it is assumed KM is trudging into work each day and is snowed under achieving little. But it totally on the contrary. The reason why he comes in each day is because he loves doing what he does. He loves talking to people about Boats and Sailing. He loves solving problems for customers. He loves dealing with the customers. He wouldn't answer Emails and the Phone if he didn't want to, because he doesn't have to. He can take any time he wants to go do anything he wants....and he does. He has a much better work/lifestyle balance than 90% of the rest of the working world around him does.

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not just a nz problem,was looking at some interesting gear brisbane last week and i got more info reading the manual.

 

the boat show was in may??well finally had a call regarding a inflatable,salesman was a little disgruntled when i said too late.

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\Wheels that is a generalization statement

Right back at ya. Absolutely no different to your comment (and previous comments) being generalized. It all comes down to what you are selling for a start. Aren't we talking Chandlery here, as in wasn't this about KM selling Rope and Chain and Anchors etc, not about selling a Boat or Insurance or whatever. Nor did I say anything about dishonesty, but you would have to be very naive to think someone is not going to try and up sell if they earn based solely on commission. As the old saying of sales goes, the mark of a good salesman is when the customer leaves the shop with an empty wallet.

Oh and actually, I have been in sales and I have even been commission only, so don't go putting me into your same basket of eggs. I am a different egg completely. ;-)

 

Further more power surges gadgets not only protect TV but computers and other charging equipment using electricity power. Had a computer blown to bits by fork lightning striking a sub station sever  miles away [ a power surge prevent gadget would  have prevent such a happening ] and electric blankets can also cause fires if a house hold does not have a electrical power surge protection system.

OK so you are also in the group of the uneducated.

First of all, all Electronic equipment sold here in NZ has to have such surge protection fitted as part of their design. It is all already there. You don't need anything extra. From a lot of testing, i have often found many external devices to be less effective or at the very least, no more effective at protecting anything downstream of it, than the electronic device itself.

When it comes to a computer, the Power supply also has that protection fitted, not to mention the fact that the output of such devices are completely regulated, isolated and independent of the input of the Power supply. If the protection circuit is ever triggered, the actual computer itself will never be damaged. Well except for maybe a direct lightening strike, or which you could have 100 of those external devices in front of anything and they will still never protect the downstream equipment.

 

Power surges come in different strengths and different amps, voltages.

So just to help you there. Our NZ Mains voltage is 230V +/- 10%. Electronics are design to withstand voltages as high as over 300V. Surge protection is designed to activate at around that 300V give or take a little.

 

 Your quote example "Here's a real world example."

Real world example because we have had customers come in with those exact and very similar situations.
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I have seen this with commercial steel stud wall systems and ceiling grid systems where the owner accepts non compliant systems (earthquake and fire rated to AS and NZS)because of the "perks/kickback from the supplier, then the installer just has to install the inferior system knowing it is crap but he can't say a thing or his work will dry up!

 

This happened in CHCH prior to the earthquakes and many of these cheap systems failed.

Interesting you say that Ketchup. When I was working on Jade Stadium, we had very similar situations taking place. Jade didn't get the money they needed for the project and the budget kept getting hacked back all the time. There were two situations that caused many of us contractors to shake our heads. One being a large glass wall to break the Canterbury Norwester The Glass people designed it to withstand a 1 in 100 year wind event. The powers to be wanted it downgraded to save costs. A substantial argument between contractor and checkbook signers took place and eventually Contractor came back with down spec's wall to withstand a 1 in 10yr event. The check signers said insurance would cover the problem if the wall failed. The second one was even worse and we all knew it was only going to be a matter of time. To save more money, the idiots decided they didn't need a waterproof membrane coating on the concrete concourses. Well that went well, because the very first major rain storm they had, level three, which was the main enclosed bar/conference area etc was completely drowned. All the brand new carpet had to come up. Ceiling tiles turned to wet weatbix and came down, all the ceiling speakers had to be replaced. it was a mess. You would have thought they would have learned from that, but oh no. Just a few weeks after it was all fixed up, the same thing happened again. This time they decided they better waterproof the concrete above. I wondered how on earth they were allowed to do such things and have it all signed off by Building inspectors. But then again, I can't actually remember ever seeing an inspector and maybe it was all allowed to be signed off by Fletchers themselves. I dunno.

    I have often wondered just how much of the damage the place incurred in the Earthquakes was maybe due to cuts elsewhere maybe.

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All I know about power surge equipment is that after loosing our pellet fire, microwave, hair dryer, TV, DVD player, washing machine over at the bach due to power spike and then installing plug in power spike protectors they work.  Oftener we arrive to find them blown, black or dead and the appliance attached is ok.  

 

Sure when i'm at Harvey Norman I don't buy one with the lap top but they do work it seems.  

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Interesting you say that Ketchup. When I was working on Jade Stadium, we had very similar situations taking place. Jade didn't get the money they needed for the project and the budget kept getting hacked back all the time. There were two situations that caused many of us contractors to shake our heads. One being a large glass wall to break the Canterbury Norwester The Glass people designed it to withstand a 1 in 100 year wind event. The powers to be wanted it downgraded to save costs. A substantial argument between contractor and checkbook signers took place and eventually Contractor came back with down spec's wall to withstand a 1 in 10yr event. The check signers said insurance would cover the problem if the wall failed. The second one was even worse and we all knew it was only going to be a matter of time. To save more money, the idiots decided they didn't need a waterproof membrane coating on the concrete concourses. Well that went well, because the very first major rain storm they had, level three, which was the main enclosed bar/conference area etc was completely drowned. All the brand new carpet had to come up. Ceiling tiles turned to wet weatbix and came down, all the ceiling speakers had to be replaced. it was a mess. You would have thought they would have learned from that, but oh no. Just a few weeks after it was all fixed up, the same thing happened again. This time they decided they better waterproof the concrete above. I wondered how on earth they were allowed to do such things and have it all signed off by Building inspectors. But then again, I can't actually remember ever seeing an inspector and maybe it was all allowed to be signed off by Fletchers themselves. I dunno.

    I have often wondered just how much of the damage the place incurred in the Earthquakes was maybe due to cuts elsewhere maybe.

Wheels it was Fletcher's and their new "newly acquired" company that has a name that is the same as a famous boxer George F.... that signed of on non compliant material/design/engineering in ChCH prior to the Earthquakes.

 

A certain Engineer who has been before the court over a rather large failure that caused death was involved in a lot of specs that contained said Dodgy product. This was a product they imported from China themselves, and was very cheap, versus a AS and NZS approved product made in NZ by the worlds best and biggest supplier.

 

What pisses me of is the fact that the company that was involved in a lot of this dodgy product installation is in charge of the clean up and profiting of buildings owners losses, unnessary loss of life, and peoples misery.... and not one investigation into the failures.

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All I know about power surge equipment is that after loosing our pellet fire, microwave, hair dryer, TV, DVD player, washing machine over at the bach due to power spike and then installing plug in power spike protectors they work.  Oftener we arrive to find them blown, black or dead and the appliance attached is ok.  

 

Sure when i'm at Harvey Norman I don't buy one with the lap top but they do work it seems.  

Sooo, you leave everything switched on when you are not there?? OK so I could understand a fridge, microwave and pallet fire, but the rest?

But OK, even if the TV and DVD player and any electronic device and I can't speak for Pallet fire, failed due to spike, it is two and perhaps maybe three components that need replacing. 1 fuse and one or maybe sometimes two VDR's. These little components simply dead short once a set voltage is reached and in a "crowbar affect" simply cause the fuse to blow.

I have had to fix equipment after Lightening strike and I can guarantee that the separate eternal surge protector will not protect and the internal ones will not either. The Voltage simply leaps across everything.I have also worked on equipment after a 33Kv line fell down across a 400V line. The House mainly affected had the switchboard blown completely off the wall. All the wiring was simply blown away. Every electrical appliance that was plugged in was destroyed. Even if the item was not switched on. The Voltage simply lept across open switch contacts and destroyed everything. Surge protection, both external and internal never had a chance.

What many people don;t realize is that Power Supply companies have to ensure the Voltage is no more than plus or minus the 10% range of 230V. In the extreme situations where damage occurs due to high voltage spikes, they are actually liable and tey carry an insurance. The above situation was completely covered under their insurance. Lightening would be an act og God I expect.

       But anyway, this has all side tracked away from the actual discussion. My actual point is, that both Hardly Normals and the sales staff earn extra commission for selling the extended warranties, (which also include the surge protection device) which os why it is pushed so hard.

 

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Sooo, you leave everything switched on when you are not there?? OK so I could understand a fridge, microwave and pallet fire, but the rest?

But OK, even if the TV and DVD player and any electronic device and I can't speak for Pallet fire, failed due to spike, it is two and perhaps maybe three components that need replacing. 1 fuse and one or maybe sometimes two VDR's. These little components simply dead short once a set voltage is reached and in a "crowbar affect" simply cause the fuse to blow.

I have had to fix equipment after Lightening strike and I can guarantee that the separate eternal surge protector will not protect and the internal ones will not either. The Voltage simply leaps across everything.I have also worked on equipment after a 33Kv line fell down across a 400V line. The House mainly affected had the switchboard blown completely off the wall. All the wiring was simply blown away. Every electrical appliance that was plugged in was destroyed. Even if the item was not switched on. The Voltage simply lept across open switch contacts and destroyed everything. Surge protection, both external and internal never had a chance.

What many people don;t realize is that Power Supply companies have to ensure the Voltage is no more than plus or minus the 10% range of 230V. In the extreme situations where damage occurs due to high voltage spikes, they are actually liable and tey carry an insurance. The above situation was completely covered under their insurance. Lightening would be an act og God I expect.

       But anyway, this has all side tracked away from the actual discussion. My actual point is, that both Hardly Normals and the sales staff earn extra commission for selling the extended warranties, (which also include the surge protection device) which os why it is pushed so hard.

 

Fair enough.  I just checked and these ones have been supplied by Orion the power guys!  They are industrial looking things.  Wife tells me we have a box of them from the networks people and so does everyone up the road.  We have a transformer up on the ridge where we are and power spikes are a real problem.  The last insurance claim was extensive.  Yes we now unplug the stuff we don't use or turn it off but it's like a second home as I work there 3 days at a time now I have sat internet.  

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Further more I'm not talking only voltage surges but AMP's surges.

Impossible thing. You cannot have a current surge.

Fuses are there to protect the Wires, not the equipment. The equipment should have either internal or at least a small glass fuse at it's own individual input. The reason for the fuse is to protect the circuitry from being damaged due to an internal failure causing a dead short.

A circuit breaker should trip at it's rated tripping current. Different types/designs may have an intermittent surge current rating and some may have a time before trip. But you can never have too much current. You can certainly have too little.

      Whenever I am teaching electrical theory, I have found that if you think of plumbing, which most have some kind of basic idea of plumbing, then understanding electrical is much easier.

   So if you think of a Wire being a Hose and the Voltage is the water pressure in the hose. The current is the volume of water that can flow through the hose. If you have a long run of say 5mm hose and you put your finger over the end to stop the water flowing, the pressure will build up to it's supply pressure. Take your finger off and there will a spurt of pressure and then it will slow to a trickle. Now if you run out a 3/4" hose and do the same, the pressure will once again build to the supply pressure, but when you take your finger off the hose, it will likely flow at a good rate and pressure. No matter what you do, you cannot increase the current. You can certainly increase the pressure. You could go to a 2" hose and the flow may be better again, but the pressure will not increase anymore than the supply and the current can only build to the maximum the pump can supply. Go to a 6" hose and the hose is likely to flow half empty, because it's potential capacity is greater than that of the supply. Now that is the only time in this description that the plumping and electrical are separate in likeness. You can't have have a wire inly half full of current ;-)

     Surges can only ever be voltage. Never current.

As for your expensive electronic device, well firstly, we were talking 230V above and I am assume you are talking 12/24V DC. I would be disappointed if something I paid 12K for did not have some kind of regulation. Normally most decent devices these days have both fuses and even reverse voltage protection. It should also have some form of Voltage regulation to at least 16 or 17V. Think about it, the battery Charger/ Alternator and anything else charging the Battery bank normally does so at 14.4 to 14.8V. All electronics should be able to handle that. Most can go above that by another couple of volts, bit some may not.

If your Plotter was on a 20A breaker, that is fine. If you did not have the recommended small fuse at the unit, then whoever installed it is an idiot and should have worn the cost of fixing it.

As for crystal, i doubt it was an actual crystal. They are inside metal cans and are found around electronic chips. I suspect the device you are describing could be a diode, likely a little wee tiny glass diode with the number 1N4717 printed in wee little print on it. Although it's a guess and could be anything and you were lucky, because most electronics these days are multilevel circuit boards (can be double sided and even multi layered) with surface mount devices (SMD's) and as such, are actually not repairable.

 

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Wheels you are guessing a lot and assuming a lot.

Sigh, Now I remember why I was a way from here so long. Some people just choose not to want to listen and argue the point. Dude. I am a highly qualified Electronics technician. I did my trade in TV. I have serviced and installed Marine electronics as a job. I also have experience in Industrial electrical installations in explosive environments. That's just one small part of what I have extensive experience in. In fact I have three separate and different professional trades and now have started on yet a fourth in petro-chemistry. 

 But hey, believe who ever the hell you want, I really don't care because it is no skin off my nose and I certainly am over arguing the point when it comes to people that simply don't want to listen or learn.

 

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