southernman 73 Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 Interesting hearing the discussion about Cat 1 and possible changes coming soon. It seems that Tri Sails will no longer be required if you have a deep reef in the main, probably a sensible move l think. A huge focus on crew recovery and tethering is coming also, be interesting to hear but all common sense by the sounds of things. Seems they are keen on AIS and MOB AIS devices which I think again is good and makes sense. A focus on alternative steering options on board when the rudder decides to go fishing. A focus on having your emergency gear ready to go and no setup required again common sense. Makes a big difference to the last time I did Cat 1, I think these new guys are really onto it i.e. Being practical. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin McCready 83 Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 I still count myself as a novice sailor but I've been alone once in 45 knot winds and a quite a few times as crew. I know I'd much rather be using a custom made stormsail than a deeply reefed anything. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,211 Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 I Agee Kevin. The cloth in a Trisail is much heavier, and the long foot and short hoist help to bring the boat up to weather when heaving to. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 Horses for courses potentially. Skip Novak prefers a deep reefed main, his logic being the speed / time taken to respond to rapidly changing conditions. He does acknowledge sail makers hate the idea, implying more thought needs to go into th design of the top part of the sail, so it doesn't get flogged and fail in those top end conditions. He primarily sails high latitudes on the Pelagin yachts. I can also understand the desire for a dedicated storm sail for the better forecast and more predicatable, and longer duration tropical depressions generally encountered between here and Fiji. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
southernman 73 Posted September 20, 2016 Author Share Posted September 20, 2016 Agree in all cases, however with modern forecasting how often statistically does a try sail actually get used? The last 3 boats i've owned all had try sails, had all sailed from Europe and none had ever been used. Saying that I have set one between here and Fiji mainly due to a baggy mainsail having sailed from Europe. It took me an hour to set it and then only had it up for a few hours. If you consider the extra risk of going on deck, the potential for the boom to toss you around etc etc i'd rather have a very keep 3rd reef me thinks personally. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,211 Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 On Island Time I can drop the main - which has 3 reefs - the third being very deep- and raise the trisail in a couple of mins. But then I have a trisail track, and the sail is bent on to that before any ocean passage - just need to put the halyard on it, open the bag, run the sheet and hoist. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ScottiE 174 Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 Reef early reef often. Using a trysail falls into the same category Quote Link to post Share on other sites
southernman 73 Posted September 20, 2016 Author Share Posted September 20, 2016 The other issue being that many modern boats it seems it quite hard to put a trysail track onto the mast apparently. Not enough room etc etc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TimB 7 Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 I think a big issue on modern boats is rudders and for some reason NZ regs don't consider this. In Australia for Cat 2 you have to carry a usable spare rudder cassette that gets mounted off the transom. This is on boats with under hung rudders like most larger keel boats. I've always wondered why NZ is so silent on this, just requiring an emergency tiller which is useless if the rudder is gone sideways below . The best cassettes use a separate rudder blade like a GBE rudder so you can mount the cassette then slide in the blade once it is attached. just my 10 cents worth Tb Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ex TL systems 63 Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 yes i always prefer to have 2 rudders available, and 2 motors , and at least 2 hulls the cassette idea seems good and would not be that hard to do if you if you have a suitable transom, pretty hard to steer without a rudder. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,211 Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 The other issue being that many modern boats it seems it quite hard to put a trysail track onto the mast apparently. Not enough room etc etc. Perhaps, depending on the mast section. The other way is to install a track gate - like the points on a railway, just above the lowered main height. Then the lower section of track for the trisail can be installed to one side of the mast. This could be a difficult thing I guess on a carbon mast especially - but I have no experience of that. On I.T, the tri-sail track is riveted to the mast with 1/4 inch monel rivets. I did it myself. Apart from breaking a crap Chinese rivet gun that could not handle the large monel rivets resistance (iirc it did 4 then the casting broke ) It was not a difficult install. Yes, it is slightly off to one side of the primary mast track, but that does not matter much in storm conditions! If you are going to do it, make certain there is a stop at the top of the track so you can't pull the sail up out of the track! Its rare to see a boat with proper tri-sail tracks these days though, you are right. Only real offshore boats have them, and many riggers now seem not to have experience fitting them - so some say you can't. The proportion of boats that go offshore remains pretty small, and for most local boats it's simply not required, and a waste of $$. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,211 Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 Oh, I forgot to say above, that there is a fairly unsupported section of tri-sail track on I.T, where it passes the lower spreaders. The mounting part of the track was removed there, leaving only the slotted tube part, to allow it to be bent past the spreader base. The Trisail was built to not have any slugs near this point when in use, so it's not loaded there... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
B00B00 306 Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 I honestly would way perfer to have 3 decent reefs and a nice reefing system rather than doing a sail change to a trysail. Any time spent out of the cockpit is where the real trouble starts. Dropping the main, lashing it down properly then plugging in and hoisting the trisail means a fair bit of time out of the cockpit. I would consider a Trysail to be a 'spare' mainsail really in case you damage the main or boom and need to keep the boat going. Only ever hoisted one in anger 2 or 3 times over 120,000nm of ocean sailing. Cant say I have ever really thought much about emergency rudders. They normally snap off at the bottom of the stock which gives you some rudder to nurse the boat home or the stock snaps completly which in that case you generally have a bigger issue with damage to the rudder bearing/hull and water getting into the boat. I have snapped a rudder off completly and also had a rudder stock break halfway between the hull and cockpit floor (200nm from land in the south china sea). First case we got the boat home no problem, second case we were extremely lucky not to loose the boat and an emergency rudder would have made zero difference. The movement in the hull of the boat was nothing short of terrifying. We were lucky the conditions abated really quickly or that boat was going straight to the bottom of the ocean. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,211 Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 I do agree with that to an extent Booboo. When I've used the Tri-sail ( only 2 x!) both times I knew the weather was coming, and put it on in about 30 Knots. Once we ended up hove to with the parachute, and once wind peaked at about 50, but only for a few hours, and we kept going under tri-sail only. I guess some of it comes down to what boat and how it is used. A race boat is different to a cruiser, especially regarding crew abilities due to numbers, and can keep sailing longer. I have both systems - the very deep 3rd reef, and the tri-sail, so have more options. It just seemed sensible to me. Oh, I forgot the fist time, when I was young and stupid, and started a Mana - Nelson race under tri-sail and storm jib in my Raven 26... Saw one of the biggest breaking waves I've seen in that race.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John B 106 Posted September 21, 2016 Share Posted September 21, 2016 I'm very tempted by the deep reef scenario,it does make a lot of sense. But I have a track and a trysail so that won't be changing. The question I would want addressed by my sailmaker is how the sail needed to be altered/ strengthened way up thar to take the extra loads. Whether thats a real or imagined concern I don't know , Booboo might have a comment? Last long weekend of last season we were sailing around with trysail and storm jib in about 8 or 10 knots of breeze, must have looked like right dorks, but it was about checking on sheet leads and chafe points, how to deal with the lazy jacks etc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jon 355 Posted September 21, 2016 Share Posted September 21, 2016 I agree with boo boo also I've used a tri sail once enroute to Fiji, the yacht had a in mast furling main which ripped so we put the tri sail up whilst I spent the day sewing up the old main ( lasted a day and a half and ripped just above my repair ) Tom and Vicky on Sunstone have used there Tri sail once in anger and that's in close to 300,000nm IIRC and that was in the Round New Zealand race. Interesting these changes at the start of this tread are very similar to how we setup for sailing back from Europe as we didn't need any type of cert or inspection I just went with what I thought important. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
B00B00 306 Posted September 21, 2016 Share Posted September 21, 2016 I'm very tempted by the deep reef scenario,it does make a lot of sense. But I have a track and a trysail so that won't be changing. The question I would want addressed by my sailmaker is how the sail needed to be altered/ strengthened way up thar to take the extra loads. Whether thats a real or imagined concern I don't know , Booboo might have a comment? Last long weekend of last season we were sailing around with trysail and storm jib in about 8 or 10 knots of breeze, must have looked like right dorks, but it was about checking on sheet leads and chafe points, how to deal with the lazy jacks etc The actual physical static loading are not really any higher from 20kts to 40kts. Its the flogging that ruins sails and obviously flogging is worse in bigger breeze. In fact in some cases the actual loadings are less once a boat is over powered as the sheet is eased. Mainsheet loadings and stabilty are the key figures for a sails load. Low stabilty means the sheets are eased earlier as well. The difference between a Storm dacron and a normal dacron is the finish or resin coating. Storm dacron is a softer finish which gives you better flexabilty and tear strength than a firmer finish dacron or laminate. The downside is that they stretch more which isnt an issue for storm sails but is for a working sail. A stiff dacron like a Y88 race main, has very little tear strength but holds its shape well. If you flog the sh*t out of it, you will get cracks apearing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tim C 23 Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 Probably it should be for officials to reply here officially. But the last YNZ conference saw lots of sensible and assertive discussion about options going forward. It is very possible sensible options will be offered to skippers/owners to trysail vs reefing options going forward. Lots of discussion of flares vs LED or Laser options, but none of the electric versions are SOLAS approved, yet. It is likely to be an option as soon as it's viable. Please be assured the people involved in these discussions are very experienced yachties and marine industry professionals, with both your safety, wallet and sensible outcomes as the focus. (Disclaimer, yes I am a YNZ inspector, was at the YNZ conference, and go yachting too) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
floatsome 0 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 came close to using trysail on our recent trip to Fiji due to goose neck failure, so concur with Josh's comments re boom failure etc. On the subject of goose necks, in discussing our failures with others in Fiji, I was surprised to learn how common goose neck breakages are, so together with boom and sail damage I think that trysails should be retained for Cat 1. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,568 Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 Try sails are useful running downwind in the trades with twin posed out headsails. Trim it amidships for zero chafe and slow the period of roll for greater comfort. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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