Tillerpilots

[Island Time 1,235]

I have spoken in recent times to several people about Tillerpilots suitability for offshore. Even posted my thoughts on here before. Today I read the article linked below, that made me think about this again. 

 

Yes, I sell these pilots - however, there is, IMO a distinct lack of product in the marketplace for a really good, robust offshore tillerpilot

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 I know that some of you are happy with your Tiller Pilots - that's great. I also know there are some vessels that have had success with a tillerpilot offshore.  Personally I would not rely on one as my primary steering, especially for a solo ocean voyage.

 

Here is a link to a good read by a very experienced sailor, (6 circumnavigations) , and his experience of them is included.

 

http://www.cruisingworld.com/gannets-third-act?cmpid=enews102716&spPodID=030&spMailingID=26894758&spUserID=NDczMDYwMDk1NQS2&spJobID=904676180&spReportId=OTA0Njc2MTgwS0

 

Also Atom Ant in the last Solo Tasman;

 

He took two, both failed.

 

There are many other examples. Of course there are examples of other types of pilots failing as well. I broke 3 tiller pilots (2 different brands) in about 5 years sailing out of Wellington, on 1st a Raven 26, then a Noelex 30. Yes this was a long time ago now, but from what I have seen, not much has changed re reliability.

 

Tillerpilots are great, they provide good functions, in an easy to install package, and steer in most conditions. Great for the Gulf and local sailing. However, IMO they are not suitable for heavy offshore use.

 

Personally I'd use a hydraulic ram with the "brains" from a real AP below deck. Yes, it's heavier, with more power drain, but it works. It is interesting that many of the Mini 650's use a tiller pilot in light weather, AND a hydraulic unit for when it gets tough.

 

Each to their own of course.

[Speared 0]

Good post. 

 

I'm having trouble getting an auto-pilot system together for the Round North Island.  Got a quote of $11k for a real AP on a 35 ft boat, so the delta between a sub-$1k for the likes of my current tiller pilot and the real deal is huge (and way more than I can afford).  Makes it tempting to buy lots of $1k tiller pilots as it will still be cheaper than an AP system (even if they do break).

 

There must be a gap in the market

[John B 106]

I ended up with what I think is a good tiller pilot when I had a new lecomble and schmidtt electric/ hydraulic ram  coupled to the old raymarine  pilot.

 I quite like the idea of a  separate  Simrad or Raymarine unit for backup, as big as can be got . It wouldn't cope with a sea state but would get us through in light or motoring.

 

 What kills them mostly ?... water into the electronics I imagine?( plastic bag)

[tuffyluffy 76]

I think the key to any autopilot, irrespective of whether its hydraulic or electric, is to have it permanently mounted below deck. Those tiller mounted rams seem to be only useful and reliable when either motoring or in light winds with minimal seaway.

 

I've been impressed with Raymarines below deck electric ram thats bolted to the rudder stock and course computer with the above deck control head. Its been very reliable and upgrade-able as new technology arrives. I'm not sure of the cost, but I think the whole system is worth about $5-6k? and has some neat functionality (when networked with other gear) such as steering to a wind angle, way point, autotack etc.

 

Also, being electric, I don't need worry about another system to maintain ie hydraulic

[John B 106]

Yes, I mounted my drive below deck and the hydraulic  ram above . The electrics are in dust below the cockpit. I have to say its been very good over the last 8 years. I have done a passage on a boat with that Raymarine electric drive below decks and it was very good too.

 It was a 47 footer , but when I looked into it my 45 ft boat was 'too big' for it.

A philosophy I find rather peculiar. If  I can steer my rudder by hand with ( guess)  .. 10 or 15 kg of load ?  then what does the boat size have to do with anything. I've sailed hard mouthed 30 footers and light helm 40 + footers.

 Its about the balance  and the helm load , not the boat length or displacement.

[Island Time 1,235]

Normally the issues with tiller pilots are water ingress, and also the failure of the stupid little plastic end on the ram, that goes to the pin on the tiller. They flog out, shock load, then fail. If you have one that is loose, order another end before it craps out. The leak issue is caused by the pressure changes inside the cases as the ram goes in and out, and the temp changes. The seals eventually fail. A plastic bag wont help, and is likely to make it even hotter and more humid inside!

 

A good AP Kit, like the B&G NAC-3, or the AC42 Core packs, (AP Computer, precision 9 Solid state pitch roll yaw heading sensor and RF-25 rudder feedback)  is around $3200 incl GST. These are  is the high current ones capable of steering boats up to about 50 ft. It does NOT include a drive system. The low current ones for boats up to 37 ft are $2399 Incl GST

 

Drive systems;

Electric, via worm drive, start at about $2500. I don't like these much, I prefer Hydraulic over worms for reliability

 

Cable drives - Mechanical. Electric motor push/pull a cable. Pretty robust and simple, which is great. Built in rudder feedback, saves on pack cost. $2669.00 Incl GST

 

Hydraulic drives; The best for reliability - this tech is well proven, it's not used on excavators etc for no reason. Strong, robust and reliable. This is what I have - completely issue free in over 30,000 NM, and steers in any conditions. Pumps from  $1300 incl gst, rams extra - sometimes custom made is required, which can actually be cheaper than off the shelf! (Mine was)

 

Electric over Hydraulic - from $3719 Incl GST - the complete kit, pump and ram.

 

So, the way you work it out is this, the rudder loads. Best is to start with rudder types and dimensions - ie spade rudder, width/height and % balance (how far is the shaft back from the leading edge). Then the loads can be calculated and a ram selected to give sufficient power and speed to be good. Once the ram is known, a suitably sized AP computer (High or low current output to suit ram at max loading). And back from there.

 

Speared, a good Ap for a 35 ft boat starts at about 5K. However it is not difficult to spend 10, or even 20 (eg a constant running hydraulic twin ram system is circa $16K just for the pump and rams!) I'd be happy to give you a second opinion if you want to PM me. It depends on the boat design what suits a particular install.

[Island Time 1,235]

John, agreed. Size of the boat really has little to do with it. It is the rudder loads that count. Big boats have big rudders, but if properly balanced they can be fine with a smallish pilot. The Navico TP32 Tiller pilot can exert 80 KG - that is a LOT of helm load, if it was via the helm where a helmsman holds it - but it's not, it's only 400 odd mm out on the tiller from the stock - and it is SLOW at those loads. This is why I'm saying start with the rudder dimensions and design and work from there.

 

When paying $1000's for an AP, especially for offshore - or something like around the North Island - It MUST work, and any conditions, when you want it to.

 

My advice is to make sure it is supplied and installed by someone you trust, and the loads are worked out, and provided to you on request. Those who sell by the manual - "for boats up to XX feet" often end up with unsatisfactory results. Don't be afraid to ask the tough questions - like "fully loaded, what will the hard over time be for the pilot/ram you have specified" if they cant answer, my advise is to find someone else!

 

Oh, and the answer I like to see for that is 40 degrees of rudder in 4-6 seconds. That's a great pilot!

[wheels 543]

Hydraulic steering should never be considered as anything like Hydraulics on anything else like a digger, in regards to dirty noisy leaky inefficient beasts.
First of all, they are not always that much heavier. A Ram can move a lot and a small alloy body ram can be very light weight. Installation is a breeze. the hardest thing is the initial bleeding of the thing when first set up, which is not all that bad anyway. They will give years and years of good dry trouble free operation. And I don't believe they are that much more in power consumption.

What I don't understand is why we pay so much for the head units. I recon they are ruffly 5 times the cost of what they should be.

Tiller Pilots have been an issue for as long as I can remember.

[Island Time 1,235]

Agreed wheels, My hydraulic system is very clean. No Leaks, no maintenance in many years and miles. Mines a steel ram, but as wheels says, you can have alloy or stainless. The biggest issue on a tiller system is how to stow the ram when not in use. This depends on the particular boat setup, some can simply fold out of the way, some are never removed (just a bypass valve used for the hydraulics) and I've been thinking about using zero loss connectors for a plug in option.

 

The only other option with a below deck pilot on a tiller boat is like KMs one, with an electric worm drive above deck. They are subject to water ingress issues just like a tillerpilot, but slightly better as the computer is below deck, just the motor and worm above deck. The electric option is of course easy to remove.

[Steve Pope 243]

Slightly off topic, I have been looking for a Navico hand held remote for a TP32 for ever since I bought mine (2nd hand) if anyone has one that is surplus please PM me.

[ex TL systems 63]

Some sort of extra cover over the tillerpilot is still a good idea, my last one failed after i mistakenly left it out in the cockpit overnight and it rained. There is a guy in Te Atatu Efrontier that was able to repair it.  

I am looking to cover my new tillerpilot with something like a plastic toolbox where you can open the lid to get to the pilot controls and the ram comes out through a hole , as long it keeps most of the water off it .  The other idea that can work is to mount the pilot under cover with a rod or cable to link to the tiller.  The pilot will still work mounted inline rather than across the boat, so you can mount the pilot inside pointing back with a  rod linked to a bar at 90 degrees to the tiller at the stock.  

 

Instructions state pilot needs to be fitted around 18 in or 400 or so mm along the tiller but I have used one on a cat mounted near 5 ft along because that was where it suited the boat, Worked perfectly and very light to steer there although you could not use the pilot to tack which was not a problem .  I am yet to fit my Raymarine TP to my Tiki 38 cat as well as a windvane, but I think that whatever system you have it is a good idea to have some sort of backup plan and a tillerpilot being selfcontained could come in handy halfway across an ocean if your heavy duty system fails in some electronic impossible to fix way. One could have saved us having to handsteer  from Bundaberg to Opua last year.    Small TPs can also be use with trimtabs on the rudder or servo pendulum windvane systems, the less force they have to use the better, its unlikely they will last long if pushing even 30 kgs all day long.

 

A well balanced boat should hold course with little pressure and only a few inches of travel at the tiller end,  a pilot mounted here and kept dry should have a long and happy life

[too_tall 15]

We have a Simrad/B&G setup with the AC42, AC42 rate compass and HLD2000 hydraulic drive system.

 

We drive it mostly from the AP24 but can do so from the Zeus MFD also. 

 

Mostly, its great. The boat builders who constructed the mount for the ram did a terrible job and it near tore itself from the hull ( A well known Tauranga boat builder ) and the Marine electricians who sold and fitted it will never see another cent from us ( again, a well known firm ) but once we sorted those issues out, its been good, although not faultless. Occasionally it will have a temporary "failure" with no explanation or apparent reason, and restarting it works, but its a PITA when your not near it or busy elsewhere. It is moderately power hungry at around 6 amp average load in a mild sea state and up to 10 amps in a heavy sea state.

 

It does concern me the heat generated in the pump motor when its in a heavy sea to the point that I fitted a 6" computer fan blowing directly over the unit which is activated when the bypass solenoid is closed - in other-words, when the pilot is active.

 

It catches a few people out who decide to stick an arm through the wheel to adjust the throttle or similar, it can near break an arm.  

 

What it does do, however, is make voyages far more pleasant than before, and the wind vane steering is all removed and sitting in a shed.

 

The prior owner had a Simrad tiller pilot that they connected to the wind vane but we found it a poor option, specially as you had to hand way out over the transom to fit or adjust it. They also had a Simrad Wheel pilot which may have been useful motoring in a quiet harbor, but nothing more!. 

[Guest 000]

I've been a bit reluctant to get in on this post but,reading the above about tiller pilots - expensive, unreliable, power hungry, difficult if not impossible user repair, why would you even consider one for a coastal or offshore voyage when a perfectly good proven alternative exists in the form of either a trim tab or servo pendulum self steering gear?

I have an Autohelm tiller pilot. We use it whilst motoring and it works very well and of course the alternator keeps up with the current draw. But as soon as there's wind enough to sail we switch to the self steering.

Self steering is cheap. I built mine for $160 and anyone with a few tools and basic handyman skills can do the same. And if you can build it then you can repair it, at sea, in the unlikely event that the gear needs it. And of course, energy consumption is not an issue.

So I'm bound to question, why pass on a proven, reliable and cost effective means of steering the vessel in favour of an expensive, failure prone, energy hungry and generally irreparable piece of kit?

It ain't progress.

[nagy592 21]

I've been a bit reluctant to get in on this post but,reading the above about tiller pilots - expensive, unreliable, power hungry, difficult if not impossible user repair, why would you even consider one for a coastal or offshore voyage when a perfectly good proven alternative exists in the form of either a trim tab or servo pendulum self steering gear?

I have an Autohelm tiller pilot. We use it whilst motoring and it works very well and of course the alternator keeps up with the current draw. But as soon as there's wind enough to sail we switch to the self steering.

Self steering is cheap. I built mine for $160 and anyone with a few tools and basic handyman skills can do the same. And if you can build it then you can repair it, at sea, in the unlikely event that the gear needs it. And of course, energy consumption is not an issue.

So I'm bound to question, why pass on a proven, reliable and cost effective means of steering the vessel in favour of an expensive, failure prone, energy hungry and generally irreparable piece of kit?

It ain't progress.

I would ask the same question, possibly another topic already exist which explain it. Artificial steering versus  direct nature driven. I asking it as a newbie with no offshore experience and the answer is probably obvious. I have an ST2000 above deck, which already died once (water damage, after I dried out I cleaned the  surfaces on the pcb than covered with a type of nano product which is non conductive and hydrophobic. No trouble since that (the plastic bag just a precaution). I want to get/build a wind steering device for longer solo trip even if I have to sacrifice the permanent boarding ladder on the stern.

[Steve Pope 243]

Nagy592, Re wind vane self steering, there are many good reliable commercially made examples available new or 2nd hand, one of the posters to this thread says he has one in his garage after replacing it with an electric / hydraulic? unit. Or you can do what Chris C (and I ) have done and use an existing design as a basis and then build it to suit your particular boat.  I believe Chris agree, there can be a bit of tinkering needed to get it right. Mine took me to Tonga,Fiji, and back to NZ. the only failure I had was in my choice of cable connecting the vane to the trim tab. As my vane was sighted on the top of the radar arch it necessitated a 2m cable run and the inner cable wasn't able to cope with the possibly millions of cycles it went through. That being said it was repaired / replaced only 3 times on the entire trip. Electric / hydraulic unit lend themselves to straight line coastal navigation with waypoints. In my opinion vanes suit long distance ocean voyages, they are OK for coastal as well but paying attention to small wind changes will be much more critical with coastal usage.

[Battleship 100]

Of course not everyone wants all that sh*t hanging off the back of their vessel, and most modern boats can easily account t for the small amount of power consumed by an electronic autopilot. The answer to weather tightness is to install one below decks and have a tiller connection off that. Will see if I can get a photo of our setup.

[harrytom 642]

yes our tiller pilot failed due to leaving in cockpit over night,it rained,well bugger me are they not to be exposed to the elements?salt spray etc,now repaired it is in a bag but surely they must be able to with stand some water?not a drowning but spray?

[Steve Pope 243]

Webb Chiles who has recently sailed from B.o.I. to Durban via Darwin, has had several TP's fail, some were replaced under warranty in Aus, He carries a surplus of them as they just don't seem to be up to moderate marine conditions. This is on a 24' boat.

[Island Time 1,235]

We have a Simrad/B&G setup with the AC42, AC42 rate compass and HLD2000 hydraulic drive system.

 

We drive it mostly from the AP24 but can do so from the Zeus MFD also. 

 

Mostly, its great. The boat builders who constructed the mount for the ram did a terrible job and it near tore itself from the hull ( A well known Tauranga boat builder ) and the Marine electricians who sold and fitted it will never see another cent from us ( again, a well known firm ) but once we sorted those issues out, its been good, although not faultless. Occasionally it will have a temporary "failure" with no explanation or apparent reason, and restarting it works, but its a PITA when your not near it or busy elsewhere. It is moderately power hungry at around 6 amp average load in a mild sea state and up to 10 amps in a heavy sea state.

 

It does concern me the heat generated in the pump motor when its in a heavy sea to the point that I fitted a 6" computer fan blowing directly over the unit which is activated when the bypass solenoid is closed - in other-words, when the pilot is active.

 

It catches a few people out who decide to stick an arm through the wheel to adjust the throttle or similar, it can near break an arm.  

 

What it does do, however, is make voyages far more pleasant than before, and the wind vane steering is all removed and sitting in a shed.

 

The prior owner had a Simrad tiller pilot that they connected to the wind vane but we found it a poor option, specially as you had to hand way out over the transom to fit or adjust it. They also had a Simrad Wheel pilot which may have been useful motoring in a quiet harbor, but nothing more!. 

TT, sounds similar to mine, but mine has a RPU160 with a custom ram. I have a couple of suggestions. Is AC 42 on the latest firmware? A really good upgrade for you would be to get the latest firmware if you're not on it, and remove the RC42 and replace it with a precision 9. This makes a huge difference to the course stability in heavy seas in particular (its a solid state compass with no moving parts, roll, pitch and yaw compensation, and is almost immune to movement/shock). While you are at it, check the firmware version of the AP24....

[Island Time 1,235]

Webb Chiles who has recently sailed from B.o.I. to Durban via Darwin, has had several TP's fail, some were replaced under warranty in Aus, He carries a surplus of them as they just don't seem to be up to moderate marine conditions. This is on a 24' boat.

Steve, Webb is the guy in the link in the first post in this thread....