ScottiE 174 Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 This time by one news. 'Water is not going to be a graveyard for us but it looks like it at the moment' - calls for life jackets to be compulsory by law https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/water-not-going-graveyard-us-but-looks-like-moment-calls-life-jackets-compulsory-law There's one quote in particular that makes you wonder if it's the educators themselves that are actually the problem! As for the title quote - I just hope it's a misquote because it is nonsensical. Was posted at 0615hrs this morning so presumably someone will wake up and actually edit it and include some actual content! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytom 642 Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 How many lifejackets does a boat owner or commercial operation need to own?? current law states lifejackets for all onboard,fair enough,but the range one would need to carry could be ridiculous,10 x jackets to 130kg person or 10 jackets to fit 80kg and on it goes. I have 6 onboard but prefer to crew to bring their own . a number of yrs ago went on the "soren larsen"great day out.Took at the time 5yr old and took a jacket and he wore it,Skipper said he did not need it, suppose he was correct but in the unlikely event child went overboard how long would it take to turn her around?paranoid parent or responsible? On a side note,do you think those who swim in lakes rivers off wharves etc wearing jeans need education as well? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin McCready 83 Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Seems like a perfectly good article to me. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mattm 98 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Why do they feel they need a law? It would still require education and enforcement. Why don't these groups put there effort into education so that people choose to wear them, rather than lobbying government to force them to do something they could do by choice. Plus they could educate people on all aspects of boating safety, (like not have 6 people in a 12 foot boat) rather than just the golden baindaid of life jackets. Speeding is illegal, people still speed and people still die, Jumping off the roof of your house isn't illegal, yet people realise the danger and don't do it. An extreme example but you get the point. The fact that speeding is illegal is likely only a small deterrent to the people who speed the most. Life jacket law will be much harder to enforce, therefore much easier to ignore. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin McCready 83 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Some grown ups promote good laws for the good of society. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytom 642 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Some grown ups promote good laws for the good of society. I promote shotguns but seems to go against society rules Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Clipper 343 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 There are so many reasons why compulsory lifejackets are not 'for the good of society' 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
armchairadmiral 411 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 More LJ nonsense.The trendy lefty 's will keep this up until they win,because they know that how ever many times they lose they only have to win once. Witness swimming pool legislation. They went on for years and years and now these laws are becoming more draconian with 3 yearly inspections and associate costs. We will need to stand firm against LJ compulsion and sadly compulsion won't save those who it is designed to save. May someone save the rest of us from do gooders. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Clipper 343 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 I'd probably say "interfering know nothing dumbf&cks" rather than "do gooders" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Freedom GBE 27 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 I find that people that bring thier own life jacket on the boat, wear them. The life jackets on the boat are never worn. Probably because guests feel embarased. Human nature? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrWatson 375 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 More LJ nonsense.The trendy lefty 's will keep this up until they win,because they know that how ever many times they lose they only have to win once. Witness swimming pool legislation. They went on for years and years and now these laws are becoming more draconian with 3 yearly inspections and associate costs. We will need to stand firm against LJ compulsion and sadly compulsion won't save those who it is designed to save. May someone save the rest of us from do gooders. It's not just lefties, it's also those on the right. If you ask around here, there are a fair number of lefties who abhor the compulsory lifejacket argument. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrWatson 375 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Seems like a perfectly good article to me. The article is a case. Kevin, may I ask if you are aware of the difference between a case study and robust statistically significant studies? In terms of evidence, case studies rank far further down - they are emotionally charged. but let's take emotion out of it, because as we have seen painfully being illustrated in the USA at the moment, emotion is not always right. I call for robust statistical analysis and evidence. Not emotional case studies or the opinion of a line touting policeman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Is there not already numerous laws in place? The Kaipara tradgedy, is not wearing a life jacket on a bar crossing already the default law? I doubt life jackets would have made a jot of difference to that outcome. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Freedom GBE 27 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Seems to be the wealthyer you are the less likely you wll drown. Maybe we should vote Labour? http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/drownings/by-country/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
erice 732 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 many ways comes back to OHS probably like most here i learned to swim at school in my case a small country primary school, 30 kids, where the farmer parents had a working-bee to bring their tractors and tools round to dig and concrete a small pool i presume the gov. paid for the materials but not much else it was a husband + wife 2 teacher school and on hot summer days half the school, 15 kids, would clear their classroom and head to the pool to be taught how to swim by the teacher, who also maintained the pool but about 20? years ago the education board decided the pool wasn't up to standard , the new headmaster didn't want to maintain the pool and the teacher's union didn't want them teaching swimming since then, once a week, the kids are bused into town for 30 minutes of water play with kickboards not enough time to learn to swim since then wealthy parents have sent their kids to swimming schools and disadvantaged kids haven't learned to swim once worked at a primary school in the uk where swimming classes were compulsory the headmaster said that as far as something that would save your life swimming was probably the most important thing you could learn 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,586 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 erice has hit the nail on the head. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mattm 98 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 From the watersafe website linked below: Forty-eight people died by drowning in New Zealand waters in the first six months of 2016 the first half of this year has seen significant decreases across many of the drowning environments and activities, particularly boatingwhich has decreased almost 70% on the half year average River drownings accounted for 21 of the 48 deaths so far this year Two people died in ponds Boating deaths were down across most areas – from powered and non-powered boats to canoes, kayaks and sailboats. Just one boating-related activity – jet skiing – saw an increase over the past six months, from zero to one. http://www.watersafety.org.nz/media/highlighted-stories/highlight-storiesconsultaion-on-new-acceptable-solutions-for-residential-pool-barrriers/half-year-drowning-toll-down-but-most-deaths-preventable/ Add in the notes in the article say about 10 of the drownings were 'non preventable' car crash, homocideor suicide related. Where are we at? 21+2+10 =33 of 48 are not boating in the sea related, and we haven't counted beach drownings yet which are usually substantial. This is why studies on actual numbers and details are required, not reactions to non-specific tables motorbike. That table makes no mention of what 'offshore' means, unlikely to mean what we mean by it. If you narrow down the number of boat related drownings, look at the actual boating activity, look at the cause of drowning, find out if each victim was wearing a life jacket (kayakers and jetskiiers normally would be?) consider other factors such as hypothermia or alcohol which would reduce chances of survival with or without a life jacket, ability to self rescue with or without a life jacket, and likelyhood of outside assistance showing up in time if people couldn't help them selves, you would get a better idea of the number of people compulsory life jackets could potentially save in boating related drownings. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madyottie 82 Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Hmmm at risk of sounding like a troll, in my experience most jetskiers wear ski vests. Also canoe clubs insist on paddlers wearing buoyancy aids when on the water. I have heard of kayakers being kicked out of clubs when found paddling without one. Then again, with the huge sales of sit-ons there could be a lot of dummies out there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mattm 98 Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 Yea true, there are buoyancy aids and there are life jackets, and they meet different standards and are for different purposes. Buoyancy aids are used for dinghy sailing, kayaking and water skiing to name a few. Is part of the compulsory life jacket discussion doing away with buoyancy aids? I sure hope not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 erice has hit the nail on the head. Yes he has. As a kid at Primary School, we would swim every day during the summer. the first half of this year has seen significant decreases across many of the drowning environments and activities, particularly boatingwhich has decreased almost 70% on the half year average The problem with that is that they do not take the Seasons into consideration. Sure there will be a decline. We head into Winter, so boating and other water activities decline. The issue will be that they will likely link the time of introduction of Lifejackets to that point of going into Winter and statistically it will show Lifejackets made compulsory declined Drownings. Which is of course, not the real facts. Yea true, there are buoyancy aids and there are life jackets, and they meet different standards and are for different purposes. Did you all note this on th News the other night where they showed all the PI's in the Pool wearing the yellow Bouyancy aids? I immediately said to my wife, "technically they are not lifejackets and they will not give the same floatation as a lifjacket is meant to do". For instance, lets just say the Kaipara incident was a case of them all wearing those Bouyancy aids. They wouldn't have stood a chance in Surf over a Bar wearing those things, yet these things are being accepted as Lifejackets. (Please note: I imagine being a commercial vessel, the operator would have had to have proper Lifejackets as part of having his license to operate.) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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