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I bought a flare pack today it has 2 smoke,2 handheld and a parachute.

I have a trailer sailer and haven't ever raced, so racing aside my question is:

 

Do I really need a flare pack? I like the idea of the LED flare instead.

 

Keeping in mind I have a VHF, waterproof PLB, cell phone in a life proof case,waterproof handheld VHF, GPS & hand held GPS.

 

So I pretty much now where I am,and have communication options. Even The wife can track my phone (it's scary how accurate it is)

 

What's everyone's opinions? Trade the flares for one LED or keep flares instead (budget doesn't allow both)

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My opinion might differ from the herd, but if you have the Comms and positional items you list, I wouldn't bother with any flares. You are well placed to communicate distress issues and your location anyway.

At best, I'd get an LED flare, purely because you won't have to throw it out in 3 years time.

 

Someone made a comment in the other thread, they let of a flare during the day, a boat motored past waving back at them, someone on land called for a rescue. Most people let fireworks off at parties and to celebrate big events. What's the difference between fireworks and flares? Both look like your having a good time from a distance. If your actually in trouble, just phone the Coastguard.

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I'd go for the led flare. The issue here is that (stupid uneducated boaties who don't know what a flare is aside) flares can alert boats nearby to your plight, its point to multi point Comms. That's good. A vhf on channel 16 is also point to multi point. A cell phone can certainly get you assistance, but, it's point to point only, ignoring local vessels who are likely in the best and fastest position to help.

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It's so much less fun when we agree . .

 

I wrote this on the YNZ thread: 

 

The new US Coast Guard regs for coastal waters and Great Lakes (they changed in 2016)

are that approved led distress signals can now substitute for flares . . 

 

For me, this is a good change - I hate the very idea of holding a lit flare on a moving boat while trying to care for an injured person. 

 

I got rid of my Mag flares at the first opportunity. 

 

The price for the LED'S is now starting to come down. Last year they were $ 100 USD's - in the US that is. 

ELECTRIC S-O-S DISTRESS LIGHT
APPROVAL CATEGORY:  161.013
APPROVAL GUIDANCE & INFORMATION:  This is an alternative to flares for recreational boats.  It is required to automatically flash S-O-S.  Light intensity and duration requirements apply.  Electric S-O-S distress lights are self-certified by the manufacturer. The Coast Guard does not issue approvals or keep an authenticated list of manufacturers.  Approval standards for these lights are found in Title 46 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Subpart 161.013. 
 

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"Don't but with so many bright flashing lights it maybe just a promo sign for a whorehouse."

 

If the whore house is flashing 3 short 3 long - any male will be compelled to investigate......

 

" You have yet to attract my attention."

 

Will a handheld flare do it? Or do I need to shoot a parachute past your head?

 

I agree with what you are saying in that the local craft are best placed for immediate assistance, but I think if my boat sinks 300m away and they don't act, they may aswell be considered as being on the moon.

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You make some excellent points KM

 

Do you think a parachute first and then an LED would qualify as crazy?

 

Capture attention with parachute, hopefully they turn the VHF on, and use LED hoping they are looking in direction of parachute to see where it came from?

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300mts is far enough away a panicked crew could look like partying crew. Add in failing light and you could very easily go down without others not that far away being aware you're in the sh*t. I can easily see situations where you could be 100mts apart and still not be seen as being in the pooh.

 

A very bright pin point red will stand out as will a parachute..... especially if it came whizzing past your scone :) Short range the red would be fine I reckon. But get a couple of miles and that maybe starting to stretch a bit.

 

Flashing SOS against a city or lit back drop will still not be easy to see in many cases. Out in the deep blue it would, as long as the person seeing it knew what SOS looked like and thought to think about it rather than get their mind out of their porn mag. They could easily dismiss it as one of the many flashing fishing float lights that can be out there. You are totally relying on someone recognising the flashes are in a pattern and what that pattern is.

 

Then there is the difference between a LED pin point light that can very easily hide behind a small chop or disappear completely in big seas and a very unidirectional laser, are you pinting it in the direction someone can see it? If you have ever seen a  flare you will have noticed it lights up a large area, often the entire boat, and does so for 360 degrees

 

I floated up then down the Akl harbour in a liferaft (a 20 man one) for 3 hours odd. We stood in the door and did the X distress wave at passing boats, almost everyone waved back. In the entire time only one boat came to ask of we were OK.

 

Don't assume all the boats around you are crewed by people who know stuff. Everyone sees flashing lights many times a day. A flare, especially a chute, is that different anyone seeing one will take a second or 3 to think about what they are seeing.

 

Flares (especially chutes) are quite unmistakable, is not affected by lit backdrops and can be seen beyond the horizon.

 

Use LEDs, laser and etc if you like but I really do think your crazy and are putting your self at elevated risk if you are going to take those and leave pyro flares at home.

By this time you could have just phoned Coastguard, and if you were actually sinking / in the pooh as fast as your scenario stated, you'd have Westpac Rescue over your head in the time it took for neighbouring fisho to realise its not a drug bust or Hollywood coming after Kim Dotcom.

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A led flare is not just a very bright flashing light. I reckon you'd be surprised at how many would recognise the SOS sequence that the led flare has.

a trial would shure be interesting.

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I've got the exact same story on parachute flares, accept my story is off the Cherbourg Peninsular and it was Bastille Day. Position reports triangulated said flare to a fishing port.

 

While the stories verify flares may be a useful way to attract attention, it still doesn't verify that anyone has ever been rescued by using flares. The only stories I've ever heard of are false alarms. And yes I have let off parachute flares, not something i'd do with the kids around, or any flammable liquids. Wouldn't recommended it on a rolling or unsteady surface (like a boat) either.

 

For the cell phone black spots, yes they do exist. That is why we are required to carry so many forms of communication, starting with the fixed VHF, handheld vhf, EPIRB and the GPS enabled PLB.

 

Currently, to comply wit ha Cat 4 stooge around the Gulf either this weekend or next, I need to spend $220 on 2 red flares and 2 orange smoke flares. All I have ever used them for is dropping down manholes (purely work related of course). If we have to carry any other forms of communication, we will need Donald Trumps media spokesman to keep up with them. I'm thinking the five forms I already have onboard are sufficient without the flares.

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What's Morse?

Is it a bred of homing pigeon?

Homing pigeons use to be an approve form of communication too. They used them on all the lighthouses around th gulf.

When the Ngiagra ran into Gt Barrier, didn't it take 10 days for the message of th disaster to reach Auckland?

 

Here's the thing. Get a little bit of modern technology. You can get this thing now, smaller than a smart phone, completely waterproof, fits in your pocket, on your belt or even on your life jacket. If th sh*t goes down you push one button.

It communicates the fact you need assistance. It communicates your location. It provides a homing signal for emergency services. It doesn't have blind spots in its communication. It doesn't need wiring, charging or servicing.

And here's the thing, it's cheaper than the service of a life raft.

 

It's a personal locator beacon.

 

No need to know morse code, recognise SOS in disco lights, carry pyrotechnics, distract fishos from their porn or anything.

 

That's how modern technology advances safety, and why we don't need all the other detritus anymore.

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The more I see things like this where things that could have had a nice sized component of 'iffy' back in the day but in todays superior manufacturing techniques and/or material quality world, not to mention the easy we now have to see what is actually happening world wide in real time, they have proven to be far better or far less needed than once thought, the more I reckon we as Skippers need to exercise our right to say 'No Thank you, I'm happy I'm good to go with what I have'.

Sorry, didn't see you post before I posted.

 

I'm getting this horrible feeling we might be starting to agree on something. Oh dear.

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Except that, say your outback of barrier, hit a ufo, boat went down in a couple of minutes. It's winter, your in the water in your flash lifejacket with just your PLB. In the hour ( if your lucky) it takes for the signal to be received, verified, local sar resources tasked, and a helo to get to the position, youve died of hypothermia. Meanwhile 1/2 a mile away is a fishing boat unaware of the problem, that could have saved you if they were aware. Which any type of flare could have done.

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So two points on that, sorry three points.

I don't count out the back of Gt Barrier as inside the Hauraki Gulf, of which I've been advocating not needing a life raft. So, in any case I'd just hop into th dinghy I have to carry. Outside of the barrier is a different proposition and I would take different / more gear if I were heading out there. It is further away and more isolated than the Gulf.

 

The PLB is just one form of comms, as we have to carry at least two, I'd use th VHF to broadcast said plight to nearby boats.

 

Thirdly, it just doesn't happen.

When was the last time a boat sunk completely (I.e. Not just took on water but actually sunk) and did so very quickly?

Yes boats hit things and boats take on water, but they just don't sink that fast. Worst case is loosing the keel and rolling over (happened near Tauranga a few years back, two guys, one drowned) sad case, but the boat was still afloat.

 

Of course you can carry more gear and be "safer", but there is a law of diminishing benefit for the increased cost. Two forms of Comms are good, but three, four or five forms of comms don't really add much, and I believe if one of those forms are pyrotechnics that cost a lot, are single use, rely on a third party seeing them, then acting on seeing it, and need to be replaced every 3 years, then it's better to choose two other forms of comms, such as VHF and PLB.

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One example of a boat that sank very quickly was Gypsy. As that happened in front of Queens Wharf, I don't think raising the alarm was an issue.

Several years ago there was a case of a yacht going under a barge. It hit the tow line at night. Believe the boat was returning from the islands and the helmsman had lost his glasses earlier in the trip, didn't recognise the tug lights. All went downhill from there. May have been off Kawau?

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Here's an example of a launch that reportedly sunk up Northland in 2006 after a suspected whale strike within 10 minutes.

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10364398

 

 

Thirdly, it just doesn't happen.
When was the last time a boat sunk completely (I.e. Not just took on water but actually sunk) and did so very quickly?
Yes boats hit things and boats take on water, but they just don't sink that fast. Worst case is loosing the keel and rolling over (happened near Tauranga a few years back, two guys, one drowned) sad case, but the boat was still afloat.

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I see in the latest Professional Skipper magazine it talks about the commissioning of the NZ  MEOSAR (Medium Earth Orbit SAR) receiving station.   The big advantages being increased number of satellites and reduced notification time.  While operating in test mode it picked up and relayed a PLB signal from a tramper in 4 minutes, 50 minutes sooner than the existing system would have.

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