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8.5 Class Meeting


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Some Thoughts from OZ:

Hi,

I am finishing off a Tim Clissold 8.5 in Brisbane, Queensland. As I am sure you are aware, there was a lot of discussion on the Sailing Anarchy site recently about the class. There have been a number of people who have kept in touch outside the site who are serious about the class and size and have either started or are close to over here. There are several Mark Pescott Fireflys here currently. Lots overseas. As you would be aware, the main topic has been the Air Draft rule. One modified GBE over here is in the process of having a rig fitted and it is a 12.7m section. As we have limited pressure over here most of the time, the height has stopped anything going ahead. I believe that the current NZ boats are running over 50m2 of sail area upwind. Several designers have been approached seriously by a number of potential owners, all stating that the thing holding them back is the rig limitation. I understand that with the current rigs flying a hull in 7-9 knots is possible. There has to be some possible solution that would allow your numbers to literally double overnight and the class to become international, without penalising current boats or needing them to update at substantial expense. Maybe a limit to upwind sail area? A trade-off with height? I have no vested interest, (other than not ending up with a white elephant), but it is hard to ignore the number of existing boats that could massively increase the size of the class by raising the air draft. I think the Firefly numbers, I understand there are huge numbers in Thailand, many in Australia, have section heights of around 12.7m. (The issue of container size can't be ignored and that rounds out to around 12.2m.) Their sail area upwind is around 50m2, and Tim Clissold recommended 48m2 for our boat. Maybe a transitional period even? That is how the I14 became an international ISAF class. It is too good a class and idea to not have it expand if a little compromise is all that is needed. I don't want to change your rule, but I would like to have others to race against.

Thanks for your consideration,

Rob Davies.

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More thoughts from OZ:

 

My name is Stephen Hampson and you will find my email address attached with this quick note.

I am writing this message to you in response to the upcoming 8.5 rules meeting.

I am the owner of a GBE (modified) that has recently relaunched. I have

named the cat 'Lets stick together', and have participated in your

forums under the same name.

I am very happy with the size of the boat for day racing and have had

good feedback from other skippers and interested persons in the sydney

area.

I have increased the mast height to 12.7m (measured from the beam) due

mainly to the lack of wind in Pittwater (average year round - 8 knts).

The hounds height is 11 mts so I end up with approx. 6mt extra sail area

(upwind). I have found this size managable, can fly a hull in 10 knts of

breese and it dosn't bury the lee hull too much when loaded.

I would like to include my information into your meeting for your

discussion.

There are a few multi's in Aus. that would fit into your rule, but most

of the skippers want rigs taller that 12 mts.There a a few old GBE

around (personally I know of 5 other skippers who are considering an

upgrade similar to mine) that would join the club.

For the sake of increased numbers and international competition I would

ask that your organisation would seriously consider lifting the size of

the mast.

I am racing the cat weekly with the multihull division from Royal Motor

Yacht Club Broken Bay and offer any kiwi skipper who might be over here

for a visit, the opportunity to come and check the cat out. I have just

started working out how to handle a GBE, and am always open for

discussion on the best way to do things.

 

cheers Stephen Hampson aka Lets stick together, aka Greenboat

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from Boo Boo:

 

Unfortunately I won’t be able to make it for this meeting as im overseas doing the Groupama race around New Caledonia.

 

Hopefully Anthony will be able to attend and represent the Rental.

 

 

 

My thoughts for the air draft is to keep it as it is currently but allow some boats to go bigger and have a band at max class air draft for 8.5 class racing, I feel this could encourage more boats to be built and conform to the rule for the big events but be allowed to go and have some fun with a bigger stick when they want to.

 

 

 

We are still hoping to get the Rental in the water mid-late October and compete in the Wednesday night series.

 

Cheers

 

Josh

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proposal for the rule: that boats that are at least half way thru the build process (hulls, say, 75% complete) and look like they are making enough progress to be launched in the next year get a vote.

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I like that idea of having a maximum upwind sail area.

 

This allows boats to carry a maximum non restricted sail area for fleet racing and then for 8.5m racing they could have another set of sails that work within the rule. But they can still have a taller rig if they want.

 

The sail area could be worked out based on what a typical GBE with massive square head and large overlapping genoa has as its sail area.

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I find it interesting that those that do not have 8.5s are the ones that want it increased.

 

Realistically how often is anyone going to have trans-tasman competitions, I for one am not interested in tying my boat up for say 3 months transporting it via containers, for maybe 5 sails in seas that I suggest don't have a patch on New Zealand sailing grounds. The racing in Auckland is far too good with arguably the best competition worldwide, both in boat quality and skipper quality to dabble over the ditch. Don't let the Australians influence the quality of our sailing

 

One other thing to take into account is with higher rigs, the overall spped of 8.5s gets faster, putting more distance between the slower 8.5 boats (like mine) and the faster boats.

 

Isn't the 8.5 class already the fastest growing class in Auckland, with at least 5 new boats in the last year? Does that not mean it's working?

 

I believe change it at your peril!

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I guess the question is really:

 

Does the 8.5 class want to be international?

 

If YES :thumbup: then increase the mast hight to the maximum that fits in a 40ft container, take Booboo's suggestion and add a black band to the NZ boats for X years.

 

This gives the class some worldwide momentum, allows new built NZ boats to conform with the international rule but keeps the older boats in the game while the poor owner saves his pennys for a new mast and sails. (maybe a group purchase of masts for GBE's)

 

If the answer is NO :thumbdown: then leave it as it is.

 

I tend to agree with John "Realistically how often is anyone going to have trans-tasman competitions"

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I tend to agree with John "Realistically how often is anyone going to have trans-tasman competitions"

 

And also - why the f**k should we change our rule to suit a few Aussies who sail somewhere where the wind doesn't blow.

 

So far that is the only reason that I have ever seen been put forward to change this particular rule - 'increase the height and more Aussies will build'. I have not seen one rational study into how a rig increase is a benefit to the class in New Zealand or one technical study into why it needs to change. I don't see how owners can make an informed decision without being informed of the facts.

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I would have thought that the ridiculous sail plans of some of the lattest 8.5m tris that have been launched is a pretty good indication that mast height is to short.

 

Also, any owner that sails regularly in auckland harbour would note that the average wind strength in auckland is actually not that high !

.....A GBE was seen racing with full main last weekend in 27 gusting 35 knots of wind.... how can that be right ?? I would have thought he would have been down to his 2nd reef by then ?

 

As for the trans tasmin thingy.... I think it is more about getting more boats that meet the rule, this makes it easier for potential owners to import suitable boats. At the moment if you want a competive 8.5m you have to build one yourself (or buy attitude ) as there are no suitable boats available to buy. So making the class international makes the pool of boats available much larger.

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Well yeah we did have a full main up but only down wind and with a sheeted out jib as we (correctly in the end) figured the old fractional couldnt take the wind strength.

there are arguments for and against increasing rig height. on the one hand in anything under 16-18knots true you are sailing with a large no. 1 overlapping jib and probably with the crew foreward and to leeward to encourage the hull to lift early. this is 1. not much fun for the crew;2 not an efficient sail combination -it would be better to have a(n easily reefed) higher aspect main and an efficient non overlapping jib that doesnt thrash itself to death on the mast prod every time you tack. I think primarily it is a historical thing: if the GBE's originally had rigs that were a metre or so taller no one would be cutting them down because they were too big would they. keep in mind the Formula 28 has a rig that is getting on for 3m taller than the 8.5 airdraft.

 

Against all of this is the fact that a taller rig would mean much bigger down wind sails as well and this means more cost, higher loads, (and more crew?); less suitable for cruising -all not where the rule is intended to take us. Enough 8.5's capsize with the current rig height -and insurance isnt getting any easier to get.

Possibly the only way to get a more efficient sail profile/combination with a rule is to limit area and then the 'box' wont get filled to the max producing ugly inefficient short life span sails. Maybe the aussies could experiment with this with an OZ 8.5 rule with an area limit?

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I think primarily it is a historical thing: if the GBE's originally had rigs that were a metre or so taller no one would be cutting them down because they were too big would they. ?

 

The GBE design is going on 4 decades old. it might not seem it now, but it was pretty radical for its time.

original SA was approx 34.4 sq meters

Then 38 SM on the original mast on the GBE 2.

A GBE 3 was briefly introduced (Boating NZ Nov 1991) which had a .5 higher mast. The article doesn't give a SA.

 

Point is that things move on and what was cutting edge 30-something years ago is old hat now. I'm surprized that there don't seem to be any GBE's here with taller rigs. Maybe that means the stock rig height is adequate for our conditions?

 

The Firefly mentioned above carries 46.8 SM on 14 metre airdraft. I understand that tall narrow rigs are supposed to be more efficient, but I can't believe such a boat would put much hurt on something like the Deeds with 51 SM, except maybe in the very light when the larger kite might make a difference. There is an 8.5 rig for the Firefly but it has approx 10% less rag.

 

Suggestion: Keep a common set of rules for the platforms, If the Aussies need bigger rigs to suit their conditions they should go for it. It will be their rule but there would still be some commonality. If there is a need to keep a 12.6 air-draft to include our most numerous class then thats ok too. Sooner or later someone will stick a tall rig on an 8.5 here, and we'll all see whether its worth doing.

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I guess it depends a bit on how much people want a race boat, and racer/cuirser boat or a cruiser/racer boat.

 

If trying to have the ultimate 8.5m race boat, then of course the rig should be taller.

 

if after some sort of box racing, locally, does it matter how big the rig is? as long as it is all the same?

 

Had this debate happened at the inception of the rule, I'd probably be supprting a taller rig, but I don't believe it should be changed now.

 

The size of the rigs makes them easy enough to handle shorthanded, with an inexperience crew, as many of us are want to do on summer weekends.

 

It may seem disappointing to build a new 8.5m multi and have to put a 'small' rig on it, but you don't have to, you could always go open racing and see how much difference it makes. If it is that good, people will follow.

 

In summary - define what the aim of the rule is, before changing anything.

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Why not let the Aussies go ahead with a taller air draught version of the rule.

Then

Institute Trans Tasman racing every second year. Kiwis go over there to race and the Aussie owners supply Aussie boats, two years later they come here and our owners supply Kiwi boats (OK makes sense to do it here first buT you get the idea). After 4 years the Kiwis can get together and decide whether or not to alter their rule.

Cheap as no boats need to be shipped, good fun, good racing, and a chance to alter the rule if............

 

 

Just an idea from a non owner.

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if the GBEs continue to maximise their sail size on the current air draft, then most of their masts will be falling down soon anyway !

 

agree that the definition of the class objectives is important in deciding if the air draft should be higher or not.

 

but seariously, this rule is all being based around the theory that there are a hole lot of GBEs out there that are going to come racing...... reality is that you have a rule designed around a boat that never races. (or a maximum of 1 or 2 GBEs racing at best)

 

Reality is that most of these 8.5 cats dont do a great deal of cruising, (maybe a few overnights and xmas and new years each year) if the class was a cruiser/ racer class then people wouldn't care about the rig height.

 

if it was a cruiser / racer class then why not implement a rule that says boats must have at least 1 double bed and a working stereo.

 

if it is meant to be a cost effective class then why not ban carbon masts and beams.

 

The fact that aussies are even interested in the rule amazes me. .....imagine if we could build boats here that the aussies wanted.......that would increase the value of our boats..... lets not do that.....

 

I think the class has a slight identity crisis.

 

if you want to go cruising with the kids get an 8.5

if you want to go racing and then cruising get an open multi. (or an 8.5 with a big rig)

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but seariously, this rule is all being based around the theory that there are a hole lot of GBEs out there that are going to come racing...... reality is that you have a rule designed around a boat that never races. (or a maximum of 1 or 2 GBEs racing at best)

 

I disagree:

 

There were 10 entries for the 8.5 Division at the BMW this year. 4 of them were GBE's (Whio, Rental, freedom and OP), 2 were small tris (creepy and Putiki) and 4 were 'new' 8.5s (deeds, lucifer, epsom and attitude).

 

Voom talked about it but only showed up for an exhibition sail on the last day. Had she entered, nearly half would have been GBE's. Hooters has ben seen out racing, and has entered the simrads. Voom is being learnt by her careful new owner

 

Not everyone is going to do everything, but if you disgard the origin of the class (the GBE), you will be left with a smaller class, less racing, and what will that do for you?

 

Reality is that most of these 8.5 cats dont do a great deal of cruising, (maybe a few overnights and xmas and new years each year) if the class was a cruiser/ racer class then people wouldn't care about the rig height.

 

Again, look at Voom and freedom - a fair bit of cruising has been done by these boats. Look at borderlines crusing pod thingame. Obviously intends to get out there for a cruise

 

if it was a cruiser / racer class then why not implement a rule that says boats must have at least 1 double bed and a working stereo.

 

Nice idea :D Especially with regards to stereo. I have bought a stereo and speakers, just need to fit them now...

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Oh, one more point I forgot.

 

rod_boy, you have an avatar of an 8.5 passing in front of your open multihull.

 

again and again and again

 

Seems odd to promote the class you are so critical of in your last post? :D :D

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a win is a win .

 

thats not the point of this thread anyway.

 

I already agree that the fastest new 8.5s will be competitive with the smaller open boats.

 

The boats that stand to gain the most overall performance benefit from a bigger rig are probably the GBEs, as they are currently the most underpowered.

 

Short term, it would make getting an old GBE and doing it up a more attractive option (assuming one wants to race competetively), as you can give it an instant performance boost by putting a bigger rig on it. This would in the short term create a more competitive fleet.

And in the long term would create a class with more international value.

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