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8.5 Class Meeting


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http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index. ... 529&st=375

 

I think Ian Farrier sums it up nicely-

 

"I normally don't design to any rules made by others, my basic aim being to just design a boat that works well, with minimal setup work involved, and one I would like to sail. But the thing I do like about the 8.5 box rule is that it limits the mast height to reasonable proportions, so to go faster the design has to be more efficient, or the sailor has to learn to sail better.

 

Thus the 'get a bigger mast' and eliminate accommodation method of going faster is mostly eliminated, so the best boats and sailors are encouraged, and not at the risk of safety or practicality. Practical roomy boats without scary rigs are also a helluva lot easier to sell, so racers thinking of a new boat will not loose their shirt on the old one, and then be put off or be unable to build a new one.

 

A simple rule also avoids the ongoing bickering that is so common with many class rules, which turn off many. Racers only make up around 10% of the sailing population, and with multihulls still being only a small segment of the market, the potential number of racers is very small anyway, so it is foolish to divide them up even more by different or complicated rules"

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I think the class has a slight identity crisis.

 

http://multihull.org.nz/open-8.5m-class ... n-1023.htm

 

"1/Intent

The intention of the Open 8.5 rule is to create a "box rule" class, based

around the principal dimensions of the popular Great Barrier Express to

stimulate fleet growth and provide much needed class racing. The spirit of the rule is to establish a class which will not promote "cheque book racing" but still allow some free thinking in design and construction and to generate boats able to be competitive both in harbour and coastal racing."

 

Wheres the identity Crisis? none of the owners have actually proposed the air draft should change, the only people getting upset about it is open class boat owners (like you) and some guy in Oz with a shitty old GBE.

 

The simple facts are if the air draft is changed the 8.5 class will die a swift death as not a single owner I can think of can afford or would throw that kind of money at their 8.5, but the one guy who does will win and everybody else will just throw in the towel (including me)

 

A new carbon rig and sails for an 8.5 would set you back over 40k, You can buy a top 8.5 with race sails for not much more than that so who you kidding?

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I think the class has a slight identity crisis.

 

http://multihull.org.nz/open-8.5m-class ... n-1023.htm

 

"1/Intent

The intention of the Open 8.5 rule is to create a "box rule" class, based

around the principal dimensions of the popular Great Barrier Express to

stimulate fleet growth and provide much needed class racing. The spirit of the rule is to establish a class which will not promote "cheque book racing" but still allow some free thinking in design and construction and to generate boats able to be competitive both in harbour and coastal racing."

 

1)stimulate much needed class racing

2)stimulate fleet growth

3)not promot cheque book racing

4)free thinking in design and construction

5)competitive in both harbour racing and coastal racing

 

sounds like a racing class to me. Not a cruiser / racing or even a racing / cruising class.

 

Or am I miss reading the "intent" ??

 

 

Also you should probably ban carbon rigs if they are going to cost 40K , as they are simply "cheque book racing" solutions. A big aluminium rig wont set you back much at all.

 

and ban screachers and overlappers while you are at it, they are simply "cheque book solutions" to going faster by increasing sail area.......

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I think the class has a slight identity crisis.

 

http://multihull.org.nz/open-8.5m-class ... n-1023.htm

 

"1/Intent

The intention of the Open 8.5 rule is to create a "box rule" class, based

around the principal dimensions of the popular Great Barrier Express to

stimulate fleet growth and provide much needed class racing. The spirit of the rule is to establish a class which will not promote "cheque book racing" but still allow some free thinking in design and construction and to generate boats able to be competitive both in harbour and coastal racing."

 

1)stimulate much needed class racing

2)stimulate fleet growth

3)not promot cheque book racing

4)free thinking in design and construction

5)competitive in both harbour racing and coastal racing

 

sounds like a racing class to me. Not a cruiser / racing or even a racing / cruising class.

 

Or am I miss reading the "intent" ??

 

 

Also you should probably ban carbon rigs if they are going to cost 40K , as they are simply "cheque book racing" solutions. A big aluminium rig wont set you back much at all.

 

and ban screachers and overlappers while you are at it, they are simply "cheque book solutions" to going faster by increasing sail area.......

 

http://racetrack.org.nz/boat_ranking.php?s=1

 

you will notice that the top two 8.5s on racetrack are Dirty Deeds and Attitude, ranked at 7th and 8th fastest boats in NZ overall and there is only 5 faster multihulls including an ORMA 60. I think the intent of having competitive Coastal and Harbour racing is fairly safe?

 

so why would an 8.5 owner want a taller rig? what possible reason would there be for doing this? apart from the sail plans apparently aren't pretty enough for you? what a load of bullshit.

 

people who want class racing will be more than happy to stick within the current rule and have close racing with a rapidly growing fleet of very even performing multihulls

 

people who dont want close racing can build a 9.5m cat with whatever sail plan they want and kick your arse and feel smug about how clever they are, or beat the orma 60 on handicap and feel even cleverer :clap:

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from Boo Boo:

My thoughts for the air draft is to keep it as it is currently but allow some boats to go bigger and have a band at max class air draft for 8.5 class racing, I feel this could encourage more boats to be built and conform to the rule for the big events but be allowed to go and have some fun with a bigger stick when they want to.

 

Tim M does this count as a rule change proposal or is it just an idea?

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http://racetrack.org.nz/race.php?raceid=22575

 

is that close racing? I would call it close

 

that is one race you are looking at, you need to compare the average results, a good way to do this might be to compare the handicaps.

 

they range from 1.2543 for dirty deeds to 0.8477 for putiki express

 

There is without a doubt pockets of extremely close and exciting racing within the fleet. But as a "class" it is not close racing.

 

Dont get me wrong , I am not knocking the class, I think its great.

But there is always room for improvement.

 

1.2543 dirty deeds

1.2470 attitude

1.2209 epsom

1.1882 lucifer

1.1553 hooters (GBE)

1.1097 Ocean Pacific (GBE)

1.0964 Voom (GBE)

1.0829 Freedom (GBE)

1.0715 penelope

1.0358 Whio (GBE)

1.0212 white knight (GBE)

1.0055 Tigre

0.9498 Hyper

0.8477 Putiki express

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Your missing Borderline, Predictwind.com and Meltdown which should all be in the top 6, therefore as I said, very close racing.

 

The GBEs also have very close racing and can easily give the front runners a run for there money on line on the right day

 

How would changing the air draft make the racing closer Rodboy?

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I've tried that big alloy section mike, we all know how that ended, :wink:

 

we're all sailing in the same box (ok i'm not sailing yet but very close, again) So dose it really matter that you aren't on the edge in 10 knots if it's close racing it's exciting. thousands of yachties sail what would be boring boats if sailed by yourself but sailed in big close fleet they are awesome. Which is the way the bulk of the owners think. yip sure if the boats always had a bigger rig you wouldn't go smaller.

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More proposals from OZ;

 

Suggestions for Consideration for the Open 8.5 Class meeting.

 

Please take into consideration the following suggestions for rule changes for the NZOPEN 8.5 Class.

 

1. 6 hp four stroke outboard can be acceptable rather than an 8hp two stroke. A 6hp four stroke weighs the same as a 8hp two stroke, (27 kgs) has greater thrust and uses a fraction of the fuel and is also much more “environmentally friendly”.

 

 

2. Minimum Crew Weight.

What does work very well with the Firefly 850 one design is a minimum crew weight rule and more importantly a minimum boat and crew weight. Boat should be weighed to ensure they comply to the minimum boat weight of 900kg. This should be done with the appropriate safety gear onboard etc.

 

Boats that are underweight need to carry ballast in some form to bring them up to 900kg.

 

With the Fireflys, the class decided early on to race with 5 crew as most of the racing is short windward returns, so the minimum crew weight is 390kg. More importantly minimum boat weight sailing must be 1400kg. Here is an extract from the Firefly 850 One design class rules.

 

5.1 Minimum crew weight, WC of 390 kg. May consist of any number of crew.

If crew weight is less than 390 kg, then weight difference is to be carried in the way of sealed

water bottles marked CB (Crew Ballast) distributed evenly throughout the boat.

The onus in on each skipper to ensure that the boat complies with this requirement and have the crew

weigh in if necessary.

A boat that has a weight measured WM of over 1010 kg. may have a minimum crew weight of less than

390kg by the same amount that it is over 1010 kg.

WM + WC = 1400 kg

 

If the Open 8.5s are sailing mainly with 4 crew (actually 3 but the principle still applies -tmcd) then a minimum crew weight of 320kg would be more

appropriate. That would make the minimum sailing weight 1220kg. The important thing here is that boats heavier than 900kg may carry lighter crew as long as WM + WC = 1220 kg . This rule works extremely well in the Firefly Class and all agree that it is an important part of the rule and a necessary “leveler” .

I consider that without a minimum total weight clause combined with strict observation of the minimum boat weight, then some boats will have a distinct advantage over others and that it is the purpose of the rule to ensure that this does not happen.

 

3. MAD

This is the most contentious issue and one that is stopping the expansion of the Open 8.5 Class in Australia. Plainly, the 8.5 metre multihulls being presently being built in Australia are simply not interested in stepping a mast that complies to the 12.6metre MAD rule. Sorry but that is a fact.

I would propose that the MAD is increased to 13.2m to 13.5m. This allows for a mast height of 12.2 m which I believe to be the minimum acceptable by the present builders. 12.5m I think is the maximum acceptable. The fact that the present boats are carrying huge fat head mains and total sail areas approaching 60m2 indictate the MAD is too short. The Fireflys have 50m2 (including mast area) on a 12.9m mast.

 

In summary, while the issues of the 6hp outboards and the minimum crew/ boat weight are suggestions that I think will improve the rule, the MAD issue is one that is stopping the class becoming accepted in Australia and the rest of the world.

 

Best regards,

 

Mark Pescott

 

Designer of the Firefly 850 One design and the SpitZfire 8.5 for the NZ Open 8.5 Rule.

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The problem with the ozzies is that they have OMR which heavily penalizes big roach mains and light boats.

 

I have heard of people adding weight and cutting their sails down in Ozzie to get a better OMR rating. Therefore an nice light NZ boat with heavily roached main will get slayed on OMR.

 

I don't think they'l ever have a decent 8.5 class in Oz because of the OMR issue, they really need to re write it completely, maybe 9m boats, 1300kg min weight and 15m MAD or something? oh hang on that sounds just like the Raider one design class

http://www.lightwaveyachts.com/raider/s ... tions.html

:eh:

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If the first rule change proposal is voted thru so I can actually propose a rule change I would like to propose an amendment to clause 12

 

"12/ Amendments to rules

 

The above rules may be altered by a meeting of 10 or more 8.5m class owners. who are financial members of both the NZMYC and 8.5m Class Owners Association. A 75% majority of those present is required.

 

Notice of any such meeting is to be circulated to all current members of the owners association at least 2 weeks prior."

 

too

 

"12/ Amendments to rules

 

The above rules may be altered only by a meeting of 10 or more active 8.5m class owners, who are financial members of both the NZMYC and 8.5m Class Owners Association. A 80% majority of those present is required.

 

Any change of the the Principal box dimensions being length, weight, width or air draft must have a 90% majority

 

Notice of any such meeting is to be circulated to all current members of the owners association at least four weeks prior and may only happen a maximum of once every three years .

All proposed rule changes must be in writing to 8.5 Committee at least 7 days prior to meeting and each boat will get one vote. Proxy votes will be allowed.

"Active" will be classed as having completed a race in the previous 12 months."

 

 

 

lets try and get some stability in the class?

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My second proposal is to alter clause 4

 

from

 

"4/Rig(s)

 

The length measured parallel to the waterplane from the fore end of the prod to the bow point as described above shall not be greater than 2000mm. This measurement shall be taken from the fore end of the bowsprit, even if the block or fitting for fixing the Gennaker tack is located aft of this end.

 

A prod is defined as a spar used as a fore-outrigger for the Gennaker or screecher tack.

If the positioning of the bowsprit is achieved with rigging elements (for example bobstay and side stays, etc.) they shall be tight and not adjustable when in use.

No part of rig or sails in their normal position shall extend aft of

measured transom.

 

Forestays shall be permanently attached aft of the bow.

 

Maximum air draft (total height above waterline)12600mm.

 

The air draft is measured between the uppermost point of the mast(s) and/or any sail (in functioning position) and the waterplane, in measurement condition. The uppermost point of the mast(s) shall be measured on any rigid point of the mast(s), including any halyard block, but excluding appendages such as lights, antennas, wind vane, anemometer, etc."

 

too

 

"4/Rig(s)

 

The length measured parallel to the waterplane from the fore end of the prod to the bow point as described above shall not be greater than 2000mm. This measurement shall be taken from the fore end of the bowsprit, even if the block or fitting for fixing the Gennaker tack is located aft of this end. A colored band at max class prod length will not qualify the boat for the 8.5 rule.

 

A prod is defined as a spar used as a fore-outrigger for the Gennaker or screecher tack.

If the positioning of the bowsprit is achieved with rigging elements (for example bobstay and side stays, etc.) they shall be tight and not adjustable when in use.

No part of rig or sails in their normal position shall extend aft of

measured transom. A colored band at max class boom length will not qualify the boat for the 8.5 rule.

 

Forestays shall be permanently attached aft of the bow.

 

Maximum air draft (total height above waterline)12600mm.

 

The air draft is measured between the uppermost point of the mast(s) and/or any sail (in functioning position) and the waterplane, in measurement condition. The uppermost point of the mast(s) shall be measured on any rigid point of the mast(s), including any halyard block, but excluding appendages such as lights, antennas, wind vane, anemometer, etc.

A colored band at max class air draft will not qualify the boat for the 8.5 rule"

 

 

I think clarifying that "bands" are not acceptable could save a lot of misunderstandings in the future?

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Racing an 8.5 with 5? What a snoozefest. And its hard enough to rustle up a crew of 3!

No wonder the aussies want bigger rigs.

 

Samin, what is the objection to bands? Seems a bit over the top. If there was an 8.5 that had a 14m rig on it, that wanted to reef and sail as an 8.5, is that really so bad? What is the down side?

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