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Cayman Islands Registry?


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I agree, I wouldn't do any ocean sailing without being cat 1 equipped.

 

This is always the argument when it comes to safety. How can you have a problem with paying X amount of fees or jumping through X hoops? It's all for your safety!

 

Why is NZ the only major sailing country that does this? Especially as cat 1 doesn't last beyond exit, it's a pretty hefty departure tax for an NZ flag.

I note the question was't answered.

 

One of the any reasons that NZ has this system is we have a huge expanse of water that is difficult to weather predict conditions on leaving, and consequently many boats get in trouble. 

 

Cat 1 is a few hundred dollars, tiny compared to the value you get of an experienced set of eyes looking over your boat, and tiny compared to the value of safety gear you'll probably be buying anyway.

 

Yes it's the ship registration that costs the real money, but that doesn't seem much cheaper elsewhere for the hassle involved.

 

If you're a New Zealand citizen and want to go offshore and expect to get rescued if things go wrong, then the exit standard is Cat 1.

 

My personal view is if you're not prepared to do that, go in anything, but don't take a EPIRB or sat phone, and tell your family you're doing under your own risk, and won't expect a search if you don't show up at your destination...

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Tim. I object to the compulsory aspect. I have left nz without cat 1 but cheerfully used the prescription as a check list during preparation. And saved thousands by having the freedom to vary from it .

 

Yes we cover a lot of area. So do lots of others. We are not unique. I would still be interested in a real analysis of whether cat 1 boats give fewer calls for help than those not.

 

Your few hundred dollars is misleading. I figure by registering offshore I save 3 to 4 thousand dollars initially. Plus I can leave on short notice if required.

 

I'm quite happy to leave without radio etc. I've done that for years. Remember this safety net is not global so people who sail out of the net are quite used to not expecting rescue.

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Really Tim cos if you did that they would still search for you and everyone would say you should have at least had a Epirb and some communication equipment with an updated position daily because it would have made it so much easier and cheaper to search . Choosing to go without NZ Reg doesn’t,t necessarily make you a complete idiot.

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Tim. I object to the compulsory aspect.

I believe this is the crux of the matter.

For people with considerable offshore experience, sometimes considerably more than the inspector concerned, being told what to do goes against the grain.

I reiterate, talk to your local inspector. I’ve found them very reasonable and flexible (except in one case). If you don’t get on with one, try another. Then pick one for your inspection.

I think, in the case of BP, they are unlikely to insist on GZ curves, and the rules will be flexible.

When the rules are used to try to make things difficult, it’s because the inspector feels that something is wrong - the boat, it’s condition, equipment, or crew. For a boat like BP, and a skipper with well over 100,000 miles in all sorts of boats, it will be pretty easy. IMO.

Personally I don’t mind another set of experienced eyes looking over my boat....

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In days long gone common sense carried a lot of weight, many of the boats that left NZ wouldn't stand a chance under the current rules., and of course it ain't that common any more. Then, we didn't have a safety industry with a vested  interest in selling stuff. We didn't have a Coast Guard out there wanting to save us from ourselves. Advert: " how can we save you if we don't know where you are" to my mind sends the wrong message. By setting the as they are rules they take away personal responsibility.

No matter if you have an epirb, life raft, flares etc. doesn't mean that you will be rescued once you leave NZ's maritime rescue area. None of the Island states will come looking for you, (perhaps with the exception of New Caledonia) you are really on your own and you should, can, could, prepare yourself accordingly, your call.

I don't recall any recent rescues of yachts without cat 1, I do recall several of yachts that had Cat 1.

It would be good if NZ Yachting could put up some figures perhaps?

It reminds me of the fact that 33% + - of drivers killed in road accidents weren't wearing seat belts!  That means that the 66% that were wearing them didn't survive either.

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Interesting discussion re Cat 1...also intriguing given a current YNZ inspector recently put his boat into Cat 1 and is away cruising this season. He went through the process and was extremely grateful he had a second YNZ inspector undertake the Cat 1 check...despite having circa 160,000nms of experience. Personally, I found the Cat 3 inspection really helpful. Specifically, the guidance provided by the inspector which was hard earnt and latterly proved by me personally.

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Right or wrong? I heard New Cal does not really give a sh#t about Cat1 and for French citizens, even a clearance! Stories of French coming here for a holiday, buying a boat and sailing straight to Noumea? Another thing I heard is that customs (NZ) will still clear you out if you hold fast to your right to sail without a Cat1? Asked Jim Lott once what use is a throw line to a single hander....

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NZ Customs is quite clear that a NZ registered yacht must have a Cat 1 certificate to depart NZ. They are doing this on behalf of Maritime NZ who have set this requirement using their powers under the Marine Transport Act.

Yes there are some items in the Safety Regs that might not fit all instances, but a good inspector will take a pragmatic approach looking to see that you are complying with the intent of the rules. 

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Compulsory rescue insurance ? You have to be kidding. Imagine the insurance requirements.On top of Cat 1which would be a minimum insurance  requirement. As I understand it only NZ citizens require a Cat 1 clearance. Change your domicile and sail away free of NZ requirements ??

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Compulsory rescue insurance ? You have to be kidding. Imagine the insurance requirements.On top of Cat 1which would be a minimum insurance  requirement. As I understand it only NZ citizens require a Cat 1 clearance. Change your domicile and sail away free of NZ requirements ??

Nothing to do with NZ citizens, depends entirely on Country of registration of the vessel. NZ boats have to have cat 1. Others dont.

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"rescue insurance" is effectively covered in taxes paid by citizens of the member states in the International Maritime Organisation (IMO) with the SOLAS and SAR conventions providing rules which all members are bound to. Furthermore all vessels on the high seas have the obligation to render assistance in emergencies where it is safe to do so.

This issue is often raised, but in fact is effectively no different to SAR for someone stuck on the side of a mountain or a lost tramper.

Consider car accidents, apart from the ambulance ride all the costs of attending to victims are part of the operating budgets of the police, NZTA and anyone else who joins in.

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Take a look at Jersey (Channel islands), it's very cheap and easy, plus it's open to any commonwealth citizen (including Kiwis) and also to EU citizens I think. You can fly either a Jersey flag (red ensign with lions on it) or a British red ensign and you get all the protection of British Navy etc. All you need is a tonnage measurement certificate which most UK surveyors can give you. When we got ours Curly Hayter was the licensed surveyor to do it in NZ, he may be retired now but the cost of measurement was minimal.

 

Big bonus is you pay only once and your certificate then lasts a full ten years, no renewal, no admin fees etc. etc.

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That looks a really good way to go. Their list of approved surveyors includes the IIMS, so I guess if you can find an IIMS surveyor in NZ they can do it.

 

You need a lot more than just a tonnage cert.  I know as I tried to register with Jersey last year.

You will need Bill of Sale not only from the person you purchased boat off, but the person previous to that too. 

I could not produce the required bills of sale, so they would not register.

All up, including the cost of registration plus the tonnage survey - it will cost about same as NZ cat 1, but without all the extra stuff you need to get a cat 1 cert in NZ.

I then tried Dutch, but their basic certification is for EU waters only, and useless worldwide.  They do have a worldwide cert, but far too complex and costly.

I am now investigating Malaysia / Lang Kawi for registration.

I would really like to register with NZ - but the five year repay full amount to get renewed, plus the silly rules that someone onboard has had to have done an "ocean passage" - which aint gonna work for me as a single-hander - have put me off NZ reg. 

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Apparently the cost issue of NZ rego is under revue, and is projected to be reduced, whether it is down to the equivalent of the UK SSR I would doubt, though that is where it should be. Don't forget the Rena, someone has to pay!!

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Take a look at Jersey (Channel islands), it's very cheap and easy, plus it's open to any commonwealth citizen (including Kiwis) and also to EU citizens I think. You can fly either a Jersey flag (red ensign with lions on it) or a British red ensign and you get all the protection of British Navy etc. All you need is a tonnage measurement certificate which most UK surveyors can give you. When we got ours Curly Hayter was the licensed surveyor to do it in NZ, he may be retired now but the cost of measurement was minimal.

 

Big bonus is you pay only once and your certificate then lasts a full ten years, no renewal, no admin fees etc. etc.

 

 

That looks a really good way to go. Their list of approved surveyors includes the IIMS, so I guess if you can find an IIMS surveyor in NZ they can do it.

 

 

Ok now we're back on track I'll jump back in :)

 

I looked into the Transocean thing, had a very nice chat with both Rita in Germany and the local TO club guy here in Switzerland, but unfortunately we'll still need a flag registry. You can use the TO thing to clear in and out, but you still need a flag ... 

 

 

I'll look in to Channel islands, but I think I already scratched it for some reason... lemmie see. 

 

I don't mind meeting most of the Cat 1 requirements, but the ocean is not a one-size-fits-all place... ANyway, this is not really about Cat1 or no Cat1.

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Well Dr Watson, for me a lot of it IS about Cat 1 or not Cat 1.

 

I don't mind the epirb or life raft requirements, but some of the other rules are a "one size fits all" nature and have just not been thought through well enough.

 

I've already mentioned the requirement that someone on board has done an ocean passage - that aint gonna work for me as a single-hander, and no, I don't want to go to a passage on someone elses boat first - I frankly, don't want to put my safety into someone elses hands.  I am preparing my boat as best I can for the worst possible case scenarios - as much as one can anyway,y as nature is nature.  And I am not going sailing on someone else's boat offshore whom I have had no hand in setting boat up, just so some cat 1 inspector can tick a box.

 

Looking further through cat 1 rigging rules - its all rules for Bermudian boats.  My boat is rigged as Chinese lug rig, often called 'junk rig'.  How can you take seriously a set of rules that assume everyone is going to rig their boat Bermudan style?

 

Then there is the rule that says bilge pump water cannot be pumped into the cockpit.  But hold on - I have removed all through holes below waterline on my boat including the cockpit drains - instead, i have two tubes glassed in and massively strong, that exit out the stern above the waterline.  I will also have bungs for them too, of course.  
I do NOT want to put another hole in my hull just so I can meet this not very well thought out 'rule' that bilge water can't be pumped out into the cockpit. My cockpit I should add - has had all the lockers glassed in - it is completely watertight and safer than probably 99% of boats that sail offshore , I also have no sliding hatch or drop-boards, instead I have built a companion way entrance secured by a Ocean Hatch, which when shut makes my companionway 100% waterproof - yet, my cockpit and bilge pump set up would fail the Cat 1 test despite being as safe and water-tight a cockpit area as one can reasonably make - and safer than 99% of boats that sail offshore from NZ.

 

So, for me Cat 1 requirements would make my boat (in the above instances) LESS SAFE in my opinion - but I sure as heck am not going to change the watertight nature of my cockpit, cockpit drains, or companionway entrance and make my boat less safe, just so some guy with a clipboard can tick a few boxes - hence my strong desire to register my yacht elsewhere.

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